Is it possible to understand the RBY Metagame?

[Crystal_]

Is it possible to understand the RBY Metagame?
What are the things that have to be understanded?
Do a fourth factor [consistency] exist?

I don't understand the metagame. Do you? *sigh*. For me it is impossible. I don't even understand what to understand or just if I have to understand anything. When I think I do, few days later I realise i didn't. So dumb.

After the long random moments I have on summer'10 to think about the meta, I slowly came across to a metagame dominated by stallers (the 3 recoverers). After a period of approaching from the 3-month time period of non-RBY results began coming. But not as expected. I realised that battles were decided in a random turn that breaks or not the defences [based on luck / randomness].

I still continued thinking that stalls dominated and when I lost, it was just because I had bad luck or I played bad, because my team was better than his; at the point that I created one team which I place as the best and more consistent one ever. Consistency...

After realising that all battles were decided by luck / randomness / one crucial prediction, I decided to reconsider my statement, and began to think that offensive teams were more useful overall (zapdos, lapras, persian, jolteon, jynx...), alongside something that provides support (egg, chansey...).

But still everything were decided the same way, except that a new factor showed up: team difference / advantage. That is electric-ground, gengar-persian, ground-egg, the perfect pokemon for my snorlax set etc. Ultimatum came when I lost to a man that uses BubbleBeam Articuno, Electrode and Aerodactyl... TWICE. And when defeats were more common than victories in general.

I don't know how good I'm at predicting but by default, it is the only one of the three factors that is not based on luck/randomness , though it is even sometimes a coin flip when you are unsure or you fell inferior to your opponent in this aspect. I have been looking for the fourth factor since September but I haven't found it. I couldn't. I don't now how. A explosion-based team that took me a minute to create and formed by random shit, is giving me better results. Team building?, consistency? WTF! After getting beated by an Electrode, a BubbleBeam Articuno and an Aerodactyl in what can I believe!?!?

[WaterWizard]

RBY rarely comes down to pure luck (e.g. Tauros vs Tauros for the win) for me. That is because I approach battles in a fundamentally different way than many others, like Icy for instance.

There are two ways you can battle, and both are viable:

1. Use a superstandard team with all the Smogon sets and no "surprise/strategy" moves. Throw this team at your opponent with an identical team, and hope you come out on top via prediction and luck.

That method DOES rely more on crits/freezes/fps, etc.

2. An alternative is to try to have a superior/advantage/counter team. This CAN be done if you know the other player well, or even if you don't. There are certain pokemon who, when put on a team, add certain pull/dynamics to the game.

To name a few:

Zapdos
Rhydon w/ Sub
Slowbro
Amnesialax
Leech Seed Eggy
Sword Dancers

Rotating in one or two of these pokemon on your team can give you quite an edge because they deviate from standard RPS. They require the foe to switch/adapt, hopefully giving you a chance to gain an advantage. Any one of the above pokemon can totally screw up a team if played correctly.

Now, as I said, some players just prefer to rely on superior prediction and favorable luck to win, instead of an advantageous team. That can work, if you have patience. However, the "right" prediction is often unknowable. There are many occasions when both trainers in a battle have options, and then it's just up to fate to see what happens. Again, sometimes it is just a toss of a coin, so trainers shouldn't brag about success in those situations.

Post and I had a talk right before one of his tournament matches. I suggested he use an advantageous team since we both knew what to expect from his foe. However, Post preferred to use his standard team, citing familiarity (mastery) and consistency as his weapons of choice.

And it worked for him.

You need to find out what works for you. Experiment. And don't worry about switching it up often. I do it ALL the time. I have plenty of success (though it's almost always outside of tournaments), and I definitely use some weird pokemon/strategies.

If you don't want your match to be all about luck/prediction/pseudoprediction, the game starts in Team Builder.

WW

PS: BubbleBeam Articuno should never be used... lol

[Crystal_]

Are you unsure about a Snorlax vs Snorlax/Tauros matchup?
Is a Slowbro going to kick your ass?
Is your Golem/Egg/Gar at low health?
In RBY this is not a problem! Explode! And finish off the well prepared Slowbro/Snorlax/whatever through a 1-1 trade.

Hey, did you predict a boom! No problem neither! Switch to Gar/Goelm/whatever is now useless to absorb it! Predicted the ghost/rock switch? EQ/Psychic it? Depending on who wins this prediction this will become a 0-1 or 2-1 trade!

Maths have never been so easy. After a plague of 1-1 trades a 2-1 or 0-1 trade will be determinant for the battle. Unless luck and team advantage factors have shown up, or will show up. Yeah, random factors. And, if everything goes matched during the battle, never mind! A Tauros vs Tauros matchup will decide the winner. Tauros or any last poke. Jolteon, Zapdos, Snorlax, Lapras... I don't mind. Just add random last poke difference to another random based factor. So nice!

So that a random but crucial prediction is going to decide the winner unless luck and/or team advantage are also present. RPS RBY? Kind of. This is RBY in my mind now.

My proposal is banning Explosions / SelfDestructs. Consistency will at least have a chance in few battles then. Fourth factor will just have to avoid luck and team difference and be paired with predictionS. Consistency = strategy / planning ; Execution = prediction / play well. If you prefer. But, actually, consistency does not exist now. Well, if you have found it, you are just cleverer that I am. Congrats.

[posthuman]

I guess I partially disagree with WW on this topic. Team building is obviously important, but I don't think it's more important than knowing how the use the team to it's fullest potential.

I believe WW's style depends at least as much on the opponent as on his own skill. If WW's opponent has a decent idea of his team-buliding strategies and/or is very adaptable, WW could be in trouble, as the advantage he normally relies on is no longer much of an advantage. It's still definitely useful to have a counter team if you know exactly what your opponent is using or if your opponent isn't very adaptable.

I tend to rely on my skill with my current team to win. I do make some changes to my team to throw people off, but I never deviate far from the team I know well. I think my method allows me to be more adaptable to counter teams, as I know my team so well that I feel I can react effectively to unexpected stuff.

Note: I know I recently lost pretty badly to WW, but I blame on my resisting adaptation after playing the same couple people (Icy) so many times before.

Also, RBY certainly has a randomness factor, but battles are not at all random. If they were, why do the same few people keep doing well in our OU tournaments?

[t3h Icy]

Banning Self-KO moves would be silly.

Anyway, I'm certain WW and Post will cover anything I would say, but to give you one major piece of advice: your prediction and handling of your team is a bit subpar. Prediction is kind of difficult to teach, but for controlling and execution, you just need to use your team better.

That's a bit general, but I'm sure you can build from that.

[Consumptus]

I actually think it's great that RBY has some sort of inconsistent behavior.

Personally, I always keep a coin on my desk when I battle for those RNG moments.

[Crystal_]

Suppose it's just me, but I have the sensation that all my battles are decided because of luck or a prediction in a random turn that makes the difference. Perhaps RBY is no my meta...

[t3h Icy]

You're looking at it the wrong way. The thing I always do against you is trap you into stalling where you're at the disadvantage and as the battle goes on, the likelihood of me getting enough fortunate situations to beat you increases.

If you control the match better and get yourself out of bad situations, you'd have much better results. If for example you're using Chansey against my Alakazam, over the durations of many turns, eventually I will get enough CHs, Special Falls and FPs on you until Chansey drops. Situations and setups like those, you need to stop getting yourself into.

[Crystal_]

The switch I do in your example is the same (perhaps you mean more predictable?) at the beginning of the chan-zam matchup than after the Spe falls. What would I do? Switch to Tauros into a Psychic? Maybe I don't have another staller. idk. I don't know what to say. The control is a very easy aspect when only stallers take part. Randomness, luck, team difference and crucial [explosion-related usually] predictions at the very beginning usually result in the "i don't have another staller / the needed poke to give an answer for your poke.

I miss the Tauros vs 45% Egg using Blizzard against a Golem that switches into a HB, and that then uses BS to a Starmie swicth-in. I miss these tactics to break a consistency that actually does not exist in my RBY. 90% of the important -crucial- predictions I have to do are based on exploding moves. BL-like predictions. Nido uses TB against Gyara, IB against Nite, RS against Arti and EQ against Hypno. Banning exploding moves makes no sense, it is just that RBY is not my kind of meta; a meta that I will never understand.

My feeling is that I win a battle when luck is average and I win the 1-2 RPS crucial predictions. Or when my luck is above average. I lost when my luck is average and I lost the prediction(s); or just when I have below-average luck. And then there is the team advantage factor which I more often than not find against me. I only use my Zapdos against teams with Golem. And vice versa adding a -out. And so on.

Never mind. Congrats for having found the consistency. RBY is a great meta for you then =)

[Crystal_]

WW, Team building is the thing I was wanting to unersatnd, but for me it does not make a difference in any battle (okas, team advantage).

BTW all set-up pokes you mentioned are taken out/put into w/e ko range after a boom. Nice surprise that if done finiishes in a 1-1 trade unless the crucial exploding predictions start, that can be after all be a 0-1 -- 2-1 trade difference depending on your RPS action.

Rhydon cannot explode, so it wont probably get the (at least) 1-1 trade yearned by all poke. That my vision of the meta now. Giving me better results so far. Thinking it eases the crucial predictions I have to do, and gives me the "control" I was looking for. A random or RPS based control though.

[WaterWizard]

Unfortunately, I can't really understand you right now.

Explosion teams are fun and they can definitely work if you catch the foe off guard.

[t3h Icy]

I'm assuming WW and Post's discussion was when he was heading in to facing me, and he makes a great point. =P Post and I use nearly identical teams, we have very similar playstyles and we both have superb abilities. And our matches did come close to coin tosses. I will say I had better luck throughout, but we went back and forth with controlling the games, which deviates the results from what luck alone would have created.

Also, you can do the WaterWizard approach, but you need a lot more knowledge about the game to be successful with that. I usually give WaterWizard a hard time since I know all the possible setups he can do with anything he throws at me, and knowing all the damage ranges and everything stops his advantage, and it becomes a disadvantage by using "lesser" Pokemon.

He did fuck me up in the Sept tourney though. =P

Also like I said about getting yourself into bad situations, what you're suggesting are ways to get out of it, but what I'm saying is you want to learn how to avoid them altogether.

[posthuman]

I updated my post above.

Nov 22, 2010 13:12:17 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

Also, you can do the WaterWizard approach, but you need a lot more knowledge about the game to be successful with that. I usually give WaterWizard a hard time since I know all the possible setups he can do with anything he throws at me, and knowing all the damage ranges and everything stops his advantage, and it becomes a disadvantage by using "lesser" Pokemon.

Ha I pretty much said this.

[WaterWizard]

Well, you two have a different style. And the results are the same. Crystal should try his luck with this side of the spectrum.

Also...

Zapdos, Slowbro, etc are not inferior; they just represent a high-risk high-reward strategy. And considering that a number of the active players aren't yet equipped to handle these surprises, I'd say it's more reward than risk at this point.

However, even against the veterans, I often have success using these pokemon for this simple reason: merely knowing how to handle surprise pokemon doesn't mean you have the means to do such. For instance, knowing that Golem and Jolteon are useful for walling Zapdos doesn't mean you have them midway through the game when Zapdos comes out.

Just in the last few months I've noticed a slight shift in the metagame, and I'm certain that the dynamic-pokemon I mentioned in my long post above are very useful today.

Players should always be experimenting.

[t3h Icy]

I've been experimenting a lot with Aerodactyl. He's super fun to play. =D

[brookman]

The metagame is defined by the players. I don't really know anything about rby tournament rule sets to continue on this topic though, I'll brush up and then get back to it.