Golem vs. Rhydon

[posthuman]

Hey guys, I'm new to Netbattle and somewhat new to competitive RBY, and I've been curious about everyone's thoughts on Golem and Rhydon.

I know Golem is considered better because he can explode and he's a bit faster than Rhydon, but to me it seems like Rhydon is a better physical sweeper with his higher Attack and he can last a little longer due to his HP.

I agree that Golem's explosion is very good and can OHKO many pokemon, but due to the fact that Gengar is on most teams (and Golem/Rhydon is not uncommon either), exploding is very risky.

What are your opinions on these two? Which one is better in most situations?

[t3h Icy]

Factoring HP, Golem's slightly higher Defense and Special are nullified, leaving only Golem's Speed superior; a measly 10 extra, but that coupled with Explosion are the reasons why Golem is almost universally preferred.

With the 10 extra Speed, Golem is faster than Rhydon and Porygon, and Speed tied with Marowak, though the only important difference is Golem having a slight edge over Rhydon (and about 1% higher Critical Hit Rate). So Golem beats Rhydon 1v1.

As far as movepool goes, both need Earthquake and Rock Slide (unless you're using Body Slam and Substitute with Golem). Rhydon has a larger movepool, but most of them are Special moves which Rhydon can't use effectively with a measly 188 Special, and Earthquake/Rock Slide are at least neutral against every Pokemon.

Out of Rhydon's extra moves, the only interesting ones are Leer/Tail Whip (identical), Surf and possibly Rest with Rhydon's bulkier HP. Leer/Tail Whip could be interesting, but Rhydon is the kind of Pokemon that either the opponent will attack with full force, or switch away from, so they don't work too well. Surf does do slightly more damage than Earthquake against Golem/Rhydon, but still takes the same number of turns (though it would be better as a finisher against a damaged one).

Earthquake vs Golem - 258-219 (71%-60%)
Surf vs Golem - 296-252 (82%-69%)

So if you're against a Golem that has 75% remaining HP for example, Surf could take out Golem whereas Earthquake couldn't.

Explosion, like you said is a risk, but it's still a better option.

Here are the standard sets for the two:

Golem: Earthquake, Rock Slide, Body Slam, Explosion (and perhaps Substitute replacing Rock Slide or Body Slam)

Rhydon: Earthquake, Rock Slide, Body Slam, Substitute (sometimes Rest or Surf)

I'd take Explosion over Substitute personally.

Here are some damage differences between the two:

Golem:

Earthquake vs Chansey - 374-318 (53%-45%)
Earthquake vs Starmie - 152-129 (47%-40%)
Earthquake vs Alakazam - 216-183 (69%-58%)
Earthquake vs Tauros - 142-120 (40%-34%)
Rock Slide vs Zapdos - 230-195 (60%-51%)

Rhydon:

Earthquake vs Chansey - 420-357 (60%-51%)
Earthquake vs Starmie - 171-145 (53%-45%)
Earthquake vs Alakazam - 242-206 (77%-66%)
Earthquake vs Tauros - 159-135 (45%-38%)
Rock Slide vs Zapdos - 258-219 (67%-57%)

Looking at those, the only particular ones are Rhydon guaranteeing a 2HKO vs Chansey and having a possible chance at 2HKOing Starmie, whereas Golem doesn't have those. Again though, Rhydon is better at sweeping when you're facing damaged Pokemon.

Here are some defense evaluations:

Golem:

Alakazam's Psychic - 203-173 (56%-58%)
Chansey's Ice Beam - 240-204 (66%-56%)
Exeggutor's Mega Drain - 349-297 (96%-82%)
Starmie's Blizzard - 292-249 (80%-69%)
Tauros' Blizzard - 234-199 (64%-55%)

Rhydon:

Alakazam's Psychic - 224-191 (54%-46%)
Chansey's Ice Beam - 265-225 (65%-54%)
Exeggutor's Mega Drain - 385-327 (93%-79%)
Starmie's Blizzard - 323-275 (78%-67%)
Tauros' Blizzard - 259-220 (63%-53%)
Golem's Earthquake - 243-206 (59%-50%) (slim chance of 2-hit survival)
Raichu's Surf - 480-408 (116%-99%) (slim chance of survival)

So like with attacking, Rhydon survives better, and it can help if Rhydon is already partially damaged. The percentage differences are rather small, but the difference can be life and death.

Overall, Rhydon is a great Pokemon, but inferior to Golem. However, if you use your Rock/Ground late in the game, Rhydon may become the more viable choice because he can sweep better than Golem, and is also tankier.

This is why almost everyone will choose Golem instead.

[WaterWizard]

Using a Rock/Ground type adds more mindgames to RBY. Golem and Rhydon are useful for their gigantic physical attacks, and their equally colossal physical defenses. Also, their extreme weakness to special attacks means prediction is key to their survival. These guys are further useful for catching Hyperbeam and killing the user (Tauros), or for shrugging off a caught explosion.

Speaking of Explosion, Golem has it and Rhydon doesn't. This fact gives Golem a distinct competive edge. When Golem is sent out, the pulse of the opponent rises to an unprecidented level and the perfect prediction is required to avoid utter failure. Rhydon lacks this effect on opponents, though he does have a slightly higher attack.

However, the higher attack of Rhydon is usually negligible, as the total number of turns required for Golem and Rhydon to kill various members of the OU is nearly equal across the board.

Notable exceptions are the 100% chance at a Chansey 2HKO, and the possibility of a 2HKO on Starmie, which Golem can never achieve. These splits can be very useful late game...

Still, with only the occasionally quicker path to victory, Rhydon just can't compare due to his lack of Explosion.

[WaterWizard]

bump -> move out of garbage

[t3h Icy]

I suppose. I did make put up a lot of damage stuff.

EDIT: May as well add a bit to what I said before.

Basically, even if you can get yourself into situations where Rhydon's slightly extra Attack and extra bulk make the difference, Golem's existence is enough to cause pressure due to Explosion. Against Rhydon, there's no worry about using Pokemon that can succumb to Explosion like they do Golem.

Like I previously said, Golem is better in most cases, but if you can provide yourself with reasons why you should use Rhydon, by all means.

One thing is if you're not comfortable with prediction, Rhydon is better for beginners since he's very linear in what he does.

[posthuman]

Oh MAN so old, I sucked at this point

of course Golem is typically better

[Nitro]

I was thinking of making a topic about this but I'll just post here - I think Rhydon is being underrated here. I don't know if he's better than Golem, but I think his extra power is actually pretty impactful on battles. What's left out is that Golem needs an extra EQ to kill a Lax, which is pretty huge imo since that's a common matchup (Rhydon can also take a bslam surf from Lax convincingly, whereas Golem can't). In general, especially if you're playing with Snorlax and Tauros (who isn't?), the extra damage can be pretty impactful for getting things into hyper beam range or going the extra step, surefire bslam range. Doing 34-40 to Tauros is pretty pitiful, where as doing 38-45 ends up being much more significant as experience players know many damaged Tauros end up in that 40-45 range from fighting Lax or other Tauros.

The thing about Golem's explosion is...it's a really big commitment. The reason you used a Ground/Rock in the first place I can only assume was for defensive purposes, and if you explode you forfeit this. So was it really worth using a shitty pokemon just to do 80% to Egg or Lax? Maybe. But something else could have done that. In a perfect world Golem would swallow Hyper Beams/Explosions, wall electrics, and then still explode on something useful. However, it rarely plays out this way, as Hyper Beams tend to come out in the late game, and electrics are basically always saved for as late as possible. You either play defense or explode, rarely both.

I think experienced Golem users will know what I'm talking about when I say Golem is fairly shitty defensively. Hell, even taking a Lax self D puts you in KO range for a lot of things. And offensively he's actually incredibly limited. He's walled by Egg the entire early game and in the late game he's going to be facing constant 2 shotting threats, so it's time to explode. In so many games you won't actually even get a solid EQ off with Golem. It's just a pure explosion pokemon. It's not to say that that is so bad, because explosion can be so good, but it isn't guaranteed to be good and you are forfeiting a lot of defense by exploding so you really need to make it count.

I think Rhydon accomplishes what you want your ground/rock to do more consistently than Golem does. Golem either plays defense or explodes. Rarely is he useful for both in the same game. It's cool to catch a Tauros Hbeam and then explode for 80% or whatever, but that's still a living Tauros and a dead Golem. The fact that it explodes on Exeggutor and Lax fairly frequently is not to be underestimated but it begs the question - could I have used something more useful to accomplish that same type of damage?

Meanwhile try switching something not Egg into a Rhydon. You may need to think for a while. Rhydon bslam + Rslide puts an Egg into Lax/Tauros Hyper Beam range. Just saying, Rhydon's damage increases are fairly impactful all over the place and as long as you run him with par support I think you will definitely find games where Rhydon is/would be better than Golem more often than you think.

Think of it this way. Rhydon tends to hit the things your Lax and Tauros are less comfortable, but ultimately may still have to fight (Lax, Exeggutor, Lapras, Starmie even). This means that if you play Rhydon well he could end up saving you a turn or 2 against these pokemon, which is fairly monstrous. Could be the difference between Snorlax or Egg blowing up on you or you just knocking them out. Just some food for thought.

[WaterWizard]

Rhydon's EQ really is so potent. Once Eggy is dead, no poke is going to want to switch in on Rhydon.

It's notable that Rhydon can actually beat a paralyzed Alakazam without even relying on FP. His EQ + a 1/2 EQ (reflected) is always a KO. Golem has to get max rolls both hits, otherwise Zam gets Reflect up and outphases with Recover. You'll probably want to set this up with Starmie, since Zam is likely to switch in and go for a T-wave before using Reflect.

Having a guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey really is nice, and a chance on Starmie is fantastic late in the game.

Also, this is just a novelty, but I was thinking that if Rhydon is going to use a water move, BubbleBeam should always be used over Surf. They both 2HKO, but BB can get the speed fall so Rhydon can actually win.

[Crystal_]

If my team is around Golem/Rhydon as a sweeper, I usually choose Rhydon, while if it isn't I prefer Golem. Both need para support to cause relevant damage imo, but if Golem can't it can still explode if there's no better use for it. When I choose Rhydon however, I make sure that the team can make it relevant, because in this case Rhydon > Golem usually imo.

[Consumptus]

A pokemon from the core of the Earth using Water moves.

That said, both Nitro's and Icy's analysis are excellent observations that should definitely be taken into account when you make a team.

[t3h Icy]

I wrote more in-depth about Rhydon/Golem on Smogon, but I'll re-write some stuff here.

Psychic 2HKO chances:

Exeggutor Psychic vs Rhydon - 854/1521
Exeggutor Psychic vs Golem - 1253/1521
Alakazam Psychic vs Rhydon - 1455/1521
Alakazam Psychic vs Golem - 1521/1521

Surviving two of Alakazam's Psychics with Rhydon isn't that helpful since it's only 4.3% chance, but you also need to avoid the Special fall on the first time and a CH either turn if you want to survive two. This drops it to about 0.76%.

Exeggutor's is a lot more significant and you can fairly reliably survive two Psychics, only that Exeggutor is one of the main Pokemon you want to avoid with Rhydon. You could finish off a damage Exeggutor if you're willing to take a fairly heavy hit (or hoping for Full Paralysis).

One of the common points made is that Golem can't 2HKO Starmie and only sometimes 2HKOs Chansey, while Rhydon is guaranteed vs Chansey and often does against Starmie.

Golem's Earthquake vs Chansey - 514/1521
Golem's Earthquake vs Starmie - 0/1521
Rhydon's Earthquake vs Chansey - 1521/1521
Rhydon's Earthquake vs Starmie - 455/1521

One of the things for Golem though is that if he gets very high damage on the first Earthquake vs Chansey, you can get close to a guarantee with the following one. Golem also has the option of Explosion as always, while Rhydon is forced to Earthquake even on low ones. Chansey also 2HKOs both of them with Ice Beam, so Chansey needs to be Paralyzed when using Rhydon. Again, at least Golem has the option of Explosion.

Tauros often dies to Body Slam and two Earthquakes from Rhydon, and it is pretty much guaranteed, but to survive the two Blizzards, you need Body Slam to Paralyze or Blizzard(s) to miss. However, if you don't finish off Tauros, he's often left around the 30%-40% range which a lot of Pokemon can finish off.

Here's how the match-up works. This assumes Body Slam and Earthquake x2 is 100%. I'm also ignoring the CH possibilities with Body Slam as it is still a 3HKO (CH Body Slam and CH Earthquake can't 2HKO).

SPOILER: Click to show

Tauros's CH Chance: 55/256
Tauros's non-CH Chance: 201/256
Rhydon's CH Chance: 5/64
Rhydon's non-CH Chance: 59/64

Possibilities:

Blizzard Hit CH: 0.193
Tauros wins 19.3%

Blizzard Hit Freeze: 0.09
Tauros wins 9%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Hit: 0.9
Tauros wins 40.1%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 0.35%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit: 0.9
Tauros wins 3.69%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 0.41%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit no FP: 0.675
Tauros wins 11.9%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 1.5%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Tauros FP: 0.25
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 4.40%

Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Miss no FP: 0.075
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 1.32%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Hit CH: 0.193
Tauros wins 1.35%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.7
Blizzard Hit Freeze: 0.09
Tauros wins 0.63%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 0.02%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Miss/Blizzard non-CH non-Freeze: 0.736
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 0.20%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit CH: 0.193
Tauros wins 0.05%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit Freeze: 0.09
Tauros wins 0.02%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit: 0.9
Tauros wins 1.58%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 0.18%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam non-Para: 0.3
Blizzard Hit non-CH non-Freeze: 0.636
Earthquake CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 0.15%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 0.23%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit CH no FP: 0.145
Tauros wins 0.40%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Blizzard Hit Freeze no FP: 0.068
Tauros wins 0.19%

Blizzard Miss: 0.1
Body Slam Para: 0.3
Earthquake non-CH: 0.922
Tauros FP/Blizzard Miss: 0.325
Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 0.90%

Total Tauros wins: 87.58%
Total Rhydon wins: 9.66%
Total Missing (>_>): 2.76%

That's not a really great chance and you probably have better luck trying to Freeze using Ice Beam with Rhydon. Again, Golem can explode.

Rhydon has a stronger chance of 3HKOing Snorlax than Golem:

Rhydon EQ vs Snorlax - 58653/59319
Golem EQ vs Snorlax - 1140/59319

And this is definitely nice.

Snorlax also has about an 80% chance to 2HKO Golem using Body Slam and then Surf, so if Golem switches into Body Slam and you use Surf Snorlax, you have a really nice follow-up. This is better if you Paralyze though, but since Surf Snorlax is less common, Golem users may not explode.

Jynx is more OHKOable with Rhydon. In fact, it's guaranteed while Golem has a 56%ish chance. The only thing is Jynx will almost certainly OHKO either of them with Blizzard, but it's definitely nice to have with Rhydon.

Gengar gets OHKOed by Rhydon guaranteed. Golem is still at 90%, but guarantees are nice to have.

Slowbro can be 3HKOed by Rhydon (45070/59319), but Golem can only 4HKO. This is possible if you switch on the Rest, but fatal if you switch on Surf. That's also not factoring CHs, and the chance to CH at least once across 3 turns with Rhydon is 21.7%. This brings the total chance to 3HKO Slowbro to about 81.2%. Of course, you need to make sure Slowbro isn't switching or anything, but this is definitely better than sacrificing Golem. Golem can only 3HKO if one of the three is a CH (24%).

Rhydon has better survivability against Lapras's Blizzard, surviving 20% of the time, opposed to Golem's 3% of the time. Rhydon also has a 98% chance to 2HKO with Rock Slide (assuming no misses), while Golem has a 9% chance. This isn't exactly something you want to be in, but it's a significant benefit of using Rhydon over Golem.

The main thing overall with Golem though is he dies to more and can't kill as much compared to Rhydon, but Golem's extra Speed (almost entirely only for vs Rhydon), and his Explosion are just enough to make Golem the more popular choice. Explosion can be used to KO what you normally can't and to get a last, strong hit in before dying. Basically, Rhydon is better, but a lot more one-dimensional. Since Rhydon is easier to figure out what he'll use, it's a lot safer to switch in. Golem has better results on average, but a higher standard deviation (Exploding on Rocks/Ghosts, dying before Explosion, etc).

[t3h Icy]

To reply to the above 3 posts (I guess I took a lot of time writing, lol).

Golem's Earthquake vs Alakazam + Reflect Alakazam: 238/1521 (15.64%)

So Recover stalling after the Earthquake from Golem is definitely possible, but you have to avoid CHs, and Golem could still explode, but it's definitely better to use Rhydon.

Rhydon's Bubblebeam vs Golem: 1358/1521 (89.28%)

Not quite guaranteed to 2HKO, but following with Earthquake is.

Earthquake vs Golem - 258-219 (71%-60%)
Surf vs Golem - 296-252 (82%-69%)

And without Surf, you lose the 82%-69% range where Surf can KO where Earthquake can't, and a lot of moves put Golem in that range.

But here's the comparison of Surf vs Bubblebeam so you can see how good it is.

SPOILER: Click to show

Rhydon's CH Chance: 5/64
Rhydon's non-CH Chance: 59/64
Golem's CH Chance: 45/512
Golem's non-CH Chance: 467/512
Bubblebeam CH OHKO Chance: 30/39

Both can 2HKO each other guaranteed.

Surf/Earthquake Possibilites:

Golem's Earthquake CH: 0.088
Golem wins 8.79%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Earthquake/Surf non-CH: 0.922
Golem's Eaerthquake: 1
Golem wins 84.09%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Earthquake/Surf CH: 0.078
Rhydon wins 7.11%

Total Golem wins: 92.88%
Total Rhydon wins: 7.11%
Total lost to rounding: 0.01%

Bubblebeam Possibilites:

Golem's Earthquake CH: 0.088
Golem wins 8.79%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Bubblebeam non-CH no Speed loss: 0.830
Golem's Eaerthquake: 1
Golem wins 75.70%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Bubblebeam non-CH Speed loss: 0.092
Rhydon's Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 8.39%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Bubblebeam CH OHKO: 0.060
Rhydon wins 5.47%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Bubblebeam CH non-OHKO no Speed loss: 0.016
Golem's Earthquake: 1
Golem wins 1.46%

Golem's Earthquake non-CH: 0.912
Rhydon's Bubblebeam CH non-OHKO Speed loss: 0.002
Rhydon's Earthquake: 1
Rhydon wins 0.18%

Total Golem wins: 85.95%
Total Rhydon wins: 14.04%
Total lost to rounding: 0.01%

With Surf/Earthquake:

Total Golem wins: 92.88%
Total Rhydon wins: 7.11%
Total lost to rounding: 0.01%

With Bubblebeam:

Total Golem wins: 85.95%
Total Rhydon wins: 14.04%
Total lost to rounding: 0.01%

So Rhydon has almost twice the chance to beat Golem using Bubblebeam, though it's still strongly against you. If you feel that having this advantage is worth more than using Surf and having Golem OHKOable in the 82%-69% (and of course more likely than Earthquake with 69%-60%), then definitely use Bubblebeam.

[Crystal_]

lol BubbleBeam???
Rhydon Eqs first turn vs Golem and then switchs out usually. Sub is much better.

[Nitro]

Sub sucks. You get one free shot at an FP and after that if you sub again you're putting yourself in KO range for tons of stuff. I'd rather just attack stuff. Surf or Hbeam as the last move imo. In terms of pure one on one thinking bubblebeam is better than surf but practically speaking you're hitting a 1/5 chance to force golem to switch out if it wants to. At least with surf I will occasionally be in control against a dented golem (maybe it took an eq from something else or a crit bslam or even simply an explosion, idk). Hbeam's not bad for Egg, doing 37-43.

[WaterWizard]

It's all about team building.

[posthuman]

THIS THREAD IS SO OLD I WAS A NEWBIE

Substitute is definitely useful. That free shot lets you see what you're hitting so you do as much damage as you can. That maximized damage can be the difference between a KO and having to switch out. You lose some health, but not as much as you would have lost if you had let your opponent hit you. Rhydon and Golem have many weaknesses.