Anti-Physical Cloyster

[t3h Icy]

Since people seem to hate Tauros, here's how to customize Cloyster into an anti-Tauros and Snorlax machine.

Normally, at least for me, Cloyster's moveset is Blizzard, Surf, Explosion, Hyper Beam, but a few variations are all possible. However, Surf and Hyper Beam are both not up to par with other moves for killing the Physicals.

Ice Beam is better than Surf, simply because of the 10% Freeze chance, as opposed to nothing, while Blizzard does more damage than Hyper Beam. So we can already remove those.

Now onto the attacks we actually will be using:

Ice Beam vs Tauros - 137-117 (39%-33%)
Blizzard vs Tauros - 173-147 (49%-41%)
Explosion vs Tauros - 287-244 (81%-69%)

Seeing these, Blizzard and Ice Beam both 3HKO, so Blizzard isn't necessary. Ice Beam used three times is the way to go, or if you want to be aggressive, Ice Beam to Explosion is a guaranteed 2HKO.

And the return:

Tauros's Body Slam - 72-61 (24%-20%)
Tauros's Hyper Beam - 125-107 (35%-30%)

So for Tauros, the ideal route is three Body Slams and then Hyper Beam. This means that Cloyster wins the match-up. The problem is though, Tauros has a high CH rate, which can turn the favor over, though Cloyster could also CH and has a chance to Freeze. Paralysis from Body Slam only matters if Cloyster FPs.

So for the first two Ice Beams, there's a 19% chance to Freeze, and about 25.5% chance to CH at least one of the turns. Across three Body Slams (the amount before dying to Ice Beam), Tauros has a 52% chance to CH at least once and a 65.7% chance to Paralyze. After Paralysis, there's a 25% chance Cloyster misses a turn.

Since Body Slam is weak though, Body Slam either has to CH twice, or be one of the earlier ones (to follow-up with Hyper Beam). So this puts Cloyster in a slight difficult challenge unless you use Explosion.

But there's a solution; Reflect.

With Reflect, Tauros's attacks do approximately half, and a CH is required to win.

Tauros's Body Slam vs Reflect - 37-32 (12%-11%)
Tauros's Hyper Beam vs Reflect - 64-57 (21%-18%)

This means Tauros has to use 7-8 Body Slams and then Hyper Beam. Eww. In fact, even two CHs Body Slams and a non-CH Hyper Beam is survivable (though incredibly unlikely). So after Reflect is up, Cloyster has to be hit with two CH Body Slams, before getting hit by three. With Reflect, Tauros gets to attack four times before falling to Ice Beam, which isn't in Tauros's favor. To make matters worse for him, you can include Rest, so in the case Tauros does get a CH, you just heal and repeat the process. Eventually, Tauros will stop CHing which is in your favor. Every Rest you uses allows Tauros to attack three times before you can Rest again. To get two CHs in three moves is (14.86% to hit 2 or more CHs out of 3). At max, due to PP, this can be used 8 times, which gives Cloyster a 27.6% chances to PP drain Body Slam, lol.

You can also be mean if Clamp is legal.

Per Clamp does 54-44 (15%-12%).

2x should be followed by Ice Beam and then Blizzard (use the accurate move first in the case of a Freeze), or just Explosion for a good chance to KO.
3x followed by two Ice Beams. Explosion at this point is sure to KO.
4x followed by Blizzard and Ice Beam to finish if you get low damage.
5x followed by Blizzard.

So to conclude for Tauros, if Clamp is legal and you're willing to use it (75% accuracy), go with Clamp, Ice Beam, Blizzard and Explosion. Otherwise, use Ice Beam, Reflect, Rest, Explosion.

Now for Snorlax:

Ice Beam vs Snorlax - 143-122 (27%-23%)
Blizzard vs Snorlax - 180-153 (34%-29%)
Explosion vs Snorlax - 362-308 (69%-59%)

So while Blizzard has a slim chance of a 3HKO, you also have to factor in accuracy, so it's much better to go for the 4HKO with Ice Beam. It's fairly likely to work, and if not, you just use a 5th. Alternatively, you can replace the 4th Ice Beam with Blizzard, but you need to double up on Ice moves in that case.

Clamp in this case does 54-46 damage per hit (10%-9%).

2x Clamp followed by Ice Beam and then two Blizzards, or Ice Beam and then Explosion.
3x Clamp followed by three Ice Beams or Ice Beam Explosion (two Blizzards are 1 point off KOing at maximum, but that's not likely anyway).
4x Clamp followed by two Blizzards or Explosion.
5x Clamp followed by Ice Beam and Explosion.

Alternatively, since Cloyster is faster, you can actually spam Clamp to death, but you have to be wary of Paralyzing Body Slams and the chance to miss.

Snorlax's Body Slam - 77-65 (25%-21%)
Snorlax's Hyper Beam - 134-114 (44%-38%)
Snorlax's Self-Destruct - 230-196 (76%-65%)

For Snorlax, he should be using three Body Slams and then Hyper Beam, or two Body Slams and then Self-Destruct. Alternatively, he could Body Slam and then Self-Destruct, leaving Cloyster with at most, 42 HP, which can be revenged upon by practically everything.

Now for Snorlax against Reflect:

Snorlax's Body Slam vs Reflect - 44-34 (13%-11%)
Snorlax's Hyper Beam vs Reflect - 68-58 (22%-19%)
Snorlax's Self-Destruct vs Reflect - 116-99 (38%-33%)

This means Snorlax must use 7 Body Slams and then Hyper Beam, or 5/6 Body Slams and Self-Destruct. Also with such a low CH rate, Resting is very safe against Snorlax.

So for Snorlax with Clamp legal, you'd want Clamp, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Explosion and otherwise Ice Beam, Reflect, Rest, Explosion.

Fortunately, these sets match Tauros, meaning you can use the same one and be equally effective. Beauty.

Now there's one last factor, which is Electric attacks by Tauros and Snorlax.

Tauros's Thunderbolt - 145-124 (48%-41%)

This really bites for Cloyster. While it's outside of range for a 2HKO, Body Slam can cover for the damage, even with Reflect (in most cases). Now what gets worse is Tauros attacks first, meaning Body Slam won't be Reflected, and on top, Tauros uses Thunderbolt the following turn, meaning Cloyster won't get a chance to use Explosion on time, since Body Slam was used first. It is absolutely critical to disguise having Thunderbolt (ie: use Body Slam first), because otherwise, Cloyster can explode before Tauros can kill it. Addtionally, the higher chance of Paralysis earlier is nice.

Another setup is if the first Body Slam happens to be Critical, another Body Slam and then Thunderbolt will KO, even if Reflect is up during the second one. This allows extra Paralysis chances and a slight chance of the second Body Slam being Critical, meaning you can KO Cloyster without using Thunderbolt (keeping it completely hidden from the opponent). This is an amazing setup for Tauros.

Tauros's Thunder - 183-155 (60%-51%)

While this is a 2HKO guaranteed, it's a 49% chance to actually hit both, so I recommend Thunderbolt.

Snorlax's Thunderbolt - 139-118 (46%-39%)

Snorlax has a weaker Thunderbolt, but Amnesia helps make both offense and defense better, and since Snorlax has slightly higher Attack, Body Slam->Thunderbolt->Thunderbolt can be used in the same fashion as Tauros, but the only problem is Snorlax is slower than Cliyster, so the Paralysis is desired if you don't want to get blown up on.

Thus, Cloyster can be made to counter Snorlax and Tauros, but the match-up flips right back if Tauros has Thunderbolt or Snorlax has Amnesia. Alternatively, just use Gengar to counter Cloyster (survives 3 Blizzards often and 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, while being immune to Explosion). One thing though is that a Cloyster modified in this fashion isn't great against many other Pokemon (you're forced to use Explosion for any decent damage). If you want to use a balanced Cloyster, I suggest Explosion, Blizzard, Surf/Hyper Beam, Reflect.

[Crystal_]

Do you really think that Tauros/Snorlax vs Cloyster matchups exist? Reflect?
I have a more credible scenario for him.
Trainer B switches to Cloyster, Tauros/Snorlax uses BS. Trainer A sent out Starmie / Alakazam / Gengar / Lapras / Chansey / Jolteon, trainer B uses Reflect. The main aim of Cloyster should be exploding (through prediction) in these switches. Therefore, Cloyster is not useless at all, though Gengar ruins Cloyster plans more often than not.

And Cloyster can't switch into Lax/Tau more than 1 time per battle. 2 at most if you do not receive a CH/para in any of them.

Your calculations and analysis are still awesome. Sorry if I have been too cutting my my post lol =)

[t3h Icy]

Cloyster is often selected for exactly that (of course with other benefits like blowing up on Stallers). Reflect Cloyster is also very desirable if you're focusing almost entirely on countering the Physicals.

[WaterWizard]

Crystal is right, for sure. Cloyster will be using Reflect during the switch to ANY pokemon with Thunderbolt, particularly Starmie, Lapras, and Gengar.

Cloyster can be used if you want a 1 to 1 exchange by catching Hyper Beam and then exploding on Tauros. but why not just use someone with counter for a 1+ exchange instead?

I prefer Articuno.

[t3h Icy]

Or just use Explosion immediately. Again, Gengar is a problem though.

But as I said, this is a pure Anti-Physical and disregards everything else.

[WaterWizard]

If Cloyster comes out, the best response is -> Lapras and then an immediate switch to Gengar. That way Lapras absorbs the 0.25 Blizzard, and then Gengar either comes in on Explosion or the only safe Lapras switch-in; Chansey. Both of these results are advantageous for the Gengar.

Cloyster is nice at the end of the game if the opponent only has Dodrio, Tauros, and Snorlax left...

[Consumptus]

Alakazam comes in on Lapras very easily too.... which would not be a good matchup for Gengar.

As for Cloyster usage, Gengar (sleeping someone) => Cloyster is a decent switch, as Cloyster can then threaten Eggy with Blizzard, or Alakazam/Chansey with Explosion.

As for actual moveset in OU, I wouldn't recommend Reflect. Any special attacker (except Eggy) forces Cloyster out. Surf is useless in OU so you'll want to run Blizzard, Explosion, Ice Beam/Tribeam/Rest/Hyper Beam

The biggest counters to Cloyster are probably Gengar and Lapras. Starmie resists Cloyster's Explosion decently too, and can Recover it off.

[WaterWizard]

I noticed that with the non-reflect scenario, Icy accidentally calculated a critical hit over 3 Body Slams, when in fact Tauros needs a crit on one of the first 2 body slams, since a crit on the 3rd BS still results in a 4hko. So that gives Tauros even less of a chance.

Also, Alakazam doesn't like switching in on a Lapras Body Slam. If he's paralyzed (or gets paralyzed), he's in 2hko range from Bliz, which gives him a 25% chance to FP and a 14%ish chance to get crit killed.

Cloyster will be better in plus.

[Crystal_]

A para Alakazam can't come into Lapras at all. The safest switch-in is Chansey. Obviously.

Cloyster should have physical moves. Reflect is worthless (it's like LScreen in Chansey in a meta where Amnesiers didn't exist tbh) Rest rarely works, and actually needs para support to do so (as opposed to others that can use it decently and pretty well with para support), but anyway Cloyster doesn't have many moves to choose from. Imo best set is Blizzard, D-E, Hyper Beam, Explosion. Try attack doesn't status in RBY iirc.

The problem Cloyster has imo is the "dead weight factor". Takes little damage from physical hits, but does less to Lapras/Starmie/Chansey in return outside of explosion. That's what I thought for eggy some time ago though, and I think I have experimented by myself, that eggy is easily a top-top poke. Cloyster also explodes, but I think nobody can argue Cloyster is as good as egg.

[Nitro]

Umm I used rest explosion blizzard hbeam cloyster for quite a while some time ago and basically raped everyone with it. Rest is way better than reflect or surf cause surf is virtually worthless and with reflect, like said, the physicals will just chip shot cloyster on switches, then switch out to walls, rinse repeat until cloyster is gone. Rest cloyster is versatile as it pretty much completely walls snorlax and almost completely walls Tauros (needs double ch). Or, if the game has developed to the point where you don't need cloyster to wall or anything then you can explode at that point.

Oh, and Cloyster is way, way better than Articuno. Not even close.

[jorgen]

May 3, 2011 8:46:45 GMT -8 Nitro said:

Umm I used rest explosion blizzard hbeam cloyster for quite a while some time ago and basically raped everyone with it.

I don't often use Cloyster, but when I do, I prefer this set.

Rest, Explosion, and Blizzard are the immutables imo, since Rest lets it switch into the Snorlaxen and Tauros of the world repeatedly (which is really 90% of why you'd use it), and the other two because STAB Blizz and Explosion are just good moves. The fourth move is iffy, but you'll almost never use it anyway. Hyper Beam's probably the best option because it can maybe let you kill without exploding, though Reflect, IB, Surf, or even vacky thingks like Toxic could be fit in there for all it matters. Obviously, if Clamp is allowed, that's the fourth.

Of course, the most annoying thing about Cloy is its inability to kill without boom. However, it could probably work offensively. I feel like Cloy + Bro could work well together, with Cloy usually drawing things that Slowbro either likes to have gone or likes to switch in on (Gengar being an exception, albeit a short-lived one that doesn't exactly eat Blizzards like a champ). Knowing when to go boom or bro depends on the switching pattern of the opponent; once you've figured them out, take the appropriate action with an active Cloy. Of course, Cloy + Bro may seem redundant defensively, but then again, is redundant Lax + Tauros coverage even a bad thing to have?

[Crystal_]

Rest Cloyster. Works. Kinda
However you are stalling. Rest Cloyster 100% counters Lax. True. GSC Skarm does too against some sets. However, that's rby. There's no Suicune, Raikou, Skarmory, Sleep Talk etc; hence rby =/= stall meta. You guys know this better than me because you play more GSC than me; merely stalling is losing if you aren't 100% vs the ENTIRE team.

Lapras, Starmie, Rock types, electrics, amnesiers, egg etc, all come in when you are resting to threaten you. Good news for Cloy that Chansey exists walling specials (Lapras not really 100% though, and also Slowbro); Rest Eggy usually walls rock types and Golem/Rhydon for electrics.

RBY Stall isn't so bad imo, but an untimely CH, fp whatever, can go through one of your pokes; and then, like GSC stalls, all fall quickly. I have tried a Rest team tbh, and worked decently, much more if I could spread para, but Tauros was still a big problem. Stall wars with Chansey and zam are also damn boring...

Stall teams have never existed in RBY (yea Chansey vs Chansey = stalling, but i mean real stalls, aiming to 100% counter opponent's team) like they do (did?) in GSC. Exeggutor has always been solid and great and these things, but really never been called something like a "specific bait chansey exploder to open up something else", similar to the metodical GSC offense vs stalls (think of gengar -> Kou, Cloy -> Star etc).

Does RBY stall work? That's how Rest Cloy works imo.

[Nitro]

Well, you're wrong.

Basically, by walling physicals you're walling what makes RBY not stall in the first place. Cloyster letting in the pokes you listed is a joke because there are many many special walls in rby and you don't need rest to do it.

So basically the idea is to never let snorlax or tauros come in free. Even if Lax is only taking a chansey ice beam every time he comes in, that will add up as cloyster is infinitely stopping him from accomplishing anything himself.

Lots of teams depend on Snorlax and Tauros to break Chansey and if Snorlax is walled it means that Tauros will have to get involved and start taking hits earlier than he'd like. So basically all you need in conjunction with a rest cloyster is...a chansey. Meaning you can run completely normal teams with rest cloyster.

jorgen I think I may try ice beam over hyper that sounds like a good idea. Hyper does a ton to Chansey which is cool but 90% of the time it's useless so I think I might rather just commit to freeze trolling.

[Crystal_]

I don't know how could I have been wrong because i think the same as you. In fact, I said the same as you but with other words, other perspective.
Chansey may take an explosion fron Eggy, a freeze, whatever. And if this happens Cloyster will have a hard time resting (or waking up tbh) since you no longer give free turns to specials.
RBY is not Snorlax. Rhydon beats Egg after the third time it comes into Rhydon. Electrics will beat you if you don't have a ground. Slowbro if you lack Starmie. Amnesialax.

Yes, I know why and how Rest Cloyster works. And it's good, I suppose. Though try to prove it with battles, Nitro. That's the best way to see it's usefulness.

[Nitro]

Oh well it seemed like you were going off on a rant about stalling vs offense or something and it's really not that complicated here with the cloyster.

If your chansey is frozen or dead (eggy explosion is really never an excuse, egg should never be able to explode on chansey unless you are completely ok with that) then it's probably in your best interest to explode cloyster on the incoming lapras or starmie since they're probably bigger threats than snorlax now that you have no chansey.

I'm just saying you don't have to commit to any type of stall team to use that cloyster, which is what I thought you were arguing. I have plenty of logs I've used this cloyster many times and it works decently.

[Crystal_]

I have things clear. Rest Cloyster almost 100% counter Lax, but makes you vulnerable to many things when you are sleeping. Many factors like how vulnerable are you to htese things, how important walling lax in the battle was, etc determine Rest Cloy usefulness. Yes, explosion I know; and its the main reason Cloy > Articuno. If walling Lax is important and better you don't explode. If it isn't important/theres no Snorlax/taking out whatever is better you explode. Yeah, we both agree lol

[Nitro]

Just a quick update on this, I tried out blizz ice beam and it didn't work so great. I just don't find ice beam that useful or necessary. I'm trying mimic now because I think that could be at least somewhat helpful for lapras/starmie switch ins as you could potentially scare starmie away if you mimic twave or if the star/lapras is paralyzed, mimicing tbolt could put a lot of pressure on them.

At the very least it would stop Lapras from completely loling at you and spamming whatever free prediction move it wants. If you at least mimic tbolt, you probably still want to switch, but at least having some type of threat will put a little more pressure on Lapras and make switching out a little easier.

[jorgen]

Mimic seems aight, but it seems to be lessening a problem (Lapras/Starmie exist) rather than really dealing with it. With Mimic, yeah, you pressure them to Tbolt (assuming you get a good pickup), but you're probably going to be switching out anyway without having done squat to them. I always figured that DE would probably be best for getting rid of Lapras. iirc, Lapras is in Explosion kill range after 2 DEs, Starmie after 1 (though Starmie's easier to deal with, and could just recover the damage off anyway). DE recoil isn't fun, but you need the damage over Tri to kill Lap. Of course, if you're really trying to keep Cloy around to wall things instead of looking to explode it, Mimic seems to be one of the better options (as it is for many things with shit movepools).

[Nitro]

It's really too bad Cloy doesn't learn body slam or it'd be completely legit imo. Oh well.

[t3h Icy]

Leer and Explosion can OHKO Lapras, but that'd likely only scare Lapras out and come back in later.

[WaterWizard]

wow, Leer is a great option. However, Lapras+Gengar on the same team shuts that down. And plus, even if they don't have Gengar, at the end of the day you're still going one-for-one with Lapras, which isn't very laudable.

[Nitro]

Leer sucks. And yea, trading with Lapras is not something Cloyster wants to do (that's basically always available). Cloyster wants to trade with lax or tauros and Lapras tends to wall that.

[t3h Icy]

The only other real possibility then is Supersonic and then slowly whittle away HP, but ehh.

[WaterWizard]

Mimic is a decent option. Or Toxic. Or just don't use Cloyster in standard.