Stadium & Tradeback Play
Apr 5, 2011 14:36:17 GMT -8
Post by Vaerris on Apr 5, 2011 14:36:17 GMT -8
I'd normally post this under the pre-existing Tradeback thread(s), but I felt this was specific enough to perhaps warrant a separate thread. One of my favorite forms of play is Tradebacks RBY on Pokemon Stadium - it adds diversity to a relatively static meta-game.
Stadium has 'fixed' Hyper Beam as well as Focus Energy and made it so that Substitute blocks status, Explosion, Leech Seed and Mega Drain. I see Substitute becoming very useful, and since Exploders die against Subs in Stadium (correct me if I'm wrong), Exeggutor is severely nerfed. He can no longer effectively face Substituters (see Alakazam) without Double-Edge, for status and exploding will be blocked. Interestingly, Mega Drain fails on Golem/Rhydon/Waters with a Sub up.
Alakazam
Perhaps one of the best leads, running Psychic, TWave, Substitute, Recover. Substitute will block status against every sleeper due to its speed and make it even better against Chansey, as the Sub can't be broken by IB/TB. Sub could potentially help against a PRZed foe in stalling until a FP. They can also save you from being killed by critical hits. Zam can also run Ice Punch, but I don't see this as being nearly as useful, because Substitute already addresses Exeggutor, who is probably not going to be too common here anyways. TPunch could be useful against Starmie but is ultimately outclassed by Substitute, probably.
The biggest problem with this Zam is probably that it invites Hypno to come in and start using Amnesia, and all you can do is Twave and/or GTFO.
Jolteon
In addition to gaining Focus Energy/Growth, Jolteon is now the only reliable way to PRZ Zam. This could make him a suitable lead, with Thunderbolt, TWave, Pin Missile and Double Kick. He could also fit in Substitute or Focus Energy/Growth to be more effective in late game sweeping (over Pin Missile), though this could be hard to set up. Replacing Pin Missile is dangerous against Lead Exeggutor. With Focus Energy, Jolteon will critical hit everywhere, which is very useful considering Amnesia on Hypno/Lax/Bro. Can play many roles, definitely should be considered.
Persian
Now the fastest sleeper. Could she be an effective lead? With substitute blocking status, Persian can't do very much against Zam, as Psychic is a 2HKO. In addition, sleep only lasts 0-3 turns, giving you little incentive to risk a frail or PRZed Persian. However, Persian is now remarkably dangerous late game, statused or unstatused. She also learns Amnesia and T-bolt, but there are likely better PKM to play that role (Hypno?). That said, it could be a dangerous mixed sweeper - but hard to set up considering Persian's frailty.
Hypno
Amnesia, and Thunderbolt and Ice/Fire punch for Starmie, Exeggutor and Jynx. Easy set up against specials like Alakazam/Chansey, and could carry Reflect for physicals, though this creates gaps for Psychics to come in (and Persian slashes through Reflect). But do Jynx or Exeggutor really want to come into a +2 or +4 Hypno? I imagine Substitute is not too viable here because Hypno isn't fast enough to block status, except late game against PRZed or Eggy. After Amnesia(s), Sub could be used to prevent random critical hits, SPC drops or freezes from messing you up, and can ease prediction. Zam could try to PP stall your Psychics away after you've set up with a combination of TWave, Substitute and Recover.
Snorlax
Gains Lovely Kiss, but this is countered by Sleep only lasting 0-3 turns and the potential existence of Substitute. Hyper Beam is also less effective, which may make Amnesia or Exploding Snorlax the most useful. I could see a Lead Snorlax be effective against Sub Zam.
Dodrio
Learns Quick Attack. I've never run Dodrio, so someone that actually knows something about RBY will have to tell me how viable Dodrio is in this setting instead of using Persian. If Golem/Rhydon usage is increased in this metagame, I imagine Bubblebeam Persian fairs better, and Exeggutor/Gengar may be less prevalent, making Persian the better choice.
Tauros
Learns Surf if Exeggutor is not a problem and Golem/Rhydon is. Hyper Beam is nerfed, meaning Double-Edge could be a replacement. It's a tradeoff between netting a kill and being revenge killed, or surviving for later while being less dangerous.
------
Jynx
Jynx will have to use Blizzard against Zam, because Sleep is going to be blocked. With Exeggutor probably not being used as a lead and SLP being a bad status, Jynx will likely be less useful now.
Exeggutor
Really gets shafted. Gains no noteworthy moves and Substitute blocks status, seed, explosion and Mega Drain. Sleep doesn't last as long either. Can still counter Golem/Rhydon, but is not the threat he used to be. Probably should run Psychic/Stun Spore/Double-Edge/Explosion - it can still explode if the opponent is slower (paralyzed) or doesn't have sub, and Double-Edge is needed to break subs. Recoil will hurt, a lot.
Gengar
Also shafted. Though he gains Ice Punch for coverage, his ability to Explode and, to an extent, Drain is compromised. Sleep is also less reliable now - getting Hypnosis is hard enough, but what if they wake up immediately afterward? Subs will also block Hypnosis.
Chansey
The ability to spread PRZ or to FRZ is compromised by Substitute, meaning Chansey can do nothing to Zam unless it catches it on the switch.
If Double-Edge kills, there is no recoil. Thus DE may replace Hyper Beam in some situations.
I could see Rhydon potentially tying Golem in usefulness, for Golem probably doesn't want to explode on a PKM that can use Substitute, making the opportunities to explode even more difficult. That said, this can create a bigger mind-game between using Sub or attacking Golem in certain situations. If Rhydon/Golem have sub themselves, they can prevent Mega Drain from a PRZed Gengar or Exeggutor, but Psychic/Ice Punch is still a problem. Exeggutor will probably not be as common, though.
Please tell me all my mistakes both above and below.
Lead Jolteon - Tbolt, Twave, Substitute, Double Kick
Alakazam - Psychic, Substitute, Twave, Recover
Tauros - Body Slam, Blizzard, Earthquake, Hyper Beam/Double-Edge
Rhydon - Body Slam, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Substitute
Starmie - Recover, Surf, Psychic, Confuse Ray/Thunderbolt
Hypno - Amnesia, Psychic, Reflect, Rest
It would become important to secure PRZ on everything before they set up Substitutes, making Jolteon useful. Zam should be used sparingly as an Exeggutor counter to prevent Amnesia from setting up, and if Exeggutor doesn't exist it can be used even more freely. Surf over Blizzard on Starmie gives it needed power against Alakazam, Hypno, and Rhydon, and Starmie is saving the PRZ job for Jolteon and Zam.
Alternatively I could bump up Zam to lead and replace Jolt with Persian so that Hypno is less of a problem late-game.
Thanks for any input and humoring me with this, because I know Stadium play and Tradebacks is basically non-existent in the competitive sense. For disclosure, this thread is pretty self-motivated because I play with these rules with my friends pretty often. That said, I think this could be a somewhat fresh look at RBY and fun.
Stadium has 'fixed' Hyper Beam as well as Focus Energy and made it so that Substitute blocks status, Explosion, Leech Seed and Mega Drain. I see Substitute becoming very useful, and since Exploders die against Subs in Stadium (correct me if I'm wrong), Exeggutor is severely nerfed. He can no longer effectively face Substituters (see Alakazam) without Double-Edge, for status and exploding will be blocked. Interestingly, Mega Drain fails on Golem/Rhydon/Waters with a Sub up.
Alakazam
Perhaps one of the best leads, running Psychic, TWave, Substitute, Recover. Substitute will block status against every sleeper due to its speed and make it even better against Chansey, as the Sub can't be broken by IB/TB. Sub could potentially help against a PRZed foe in stalling until a FP. They can also save you from being killed by critical hits. Zam can also run Ice Punch, but I don't see this as being nearly as useful, because Substitute already addresses Exeggutor, who is probably not going to be too common here anyways. TPunch could be useful against Starmie but is ultimately outclassed by Substitute, probably.
The biggest problem with this Zam is probably that it invites Hypno to come in and start using Amnesia, and all you can do is Twave and/or GTFO.
Jolteon
In addition to gaining Focus Energy/Growth, Jolteon is now the only reliable way to PRZ Zam. This could make him a suitable lead, with Thunderbolt, TWave, Pin Missile and Double Kick. He could also fit in Substitute or Focus Energy/Growth to be more effective in late game sweeping (over Pin Missile), though this could be hard to set up. Replacing Pin Missile is dangerous against Lead Exeggutor. With Focus Energy, Jolteon will critical hit everywhere, which is very useful considering Amnesia on Hypno/Lax/Bro. Can play many roles, definitely should be considered.
Persian
Now the fastest sleeper. Could she be an effective lead? With substitute blocking status, Persian can't do very much against Zam, as Psychic is a 2HKO. In addition, sleep only lasts 0-3 turns, giving you little incentive to risk a frail or PRZed Persian. However, Persian is now remarkably dangerous late game, statused or unstatused. She also learns Amnesia and T-bolt, but there are likely better PKM to play that role (Hypno?). That said, it could be a dangerous mixed sweeper - but hard to set up considering Persian's frailty.
Hypno
Amnesia, and Thunderbolt and Ice/Fire punch for Starmie, Exeggutor and Jynx. Easy set up against specials like Alakazam/Chansey, and could carry Reflect for physicals, though this creates gaps for Psychics to come in (and Persian slashes through Reflect). But do Jynx or Exeggutor really want to come into a +2 or +4 Hypno? I imagine Substitute is not too viable here because Hypno isn't fast enough to block status, except late game against PRZed or Eggy. After Amnesia(s), Sub could be used to prevent random critical hits, SPC drops or freezes from messing you up, and can ease prediction. Zam could try to PP stall your Psychics away after you've set up with a combination of TWave, Substitute and Recover.
Snorlax
Gains Lovely Kiss, but this is countered by Sleep only lasting 0-3 turns and the potential existence of Substitute. Hyper Beam is also less effective, which may make Amnesia or Exploding Snorlax the most useful. I could see a Lead Snorlax be effective against Sub Zam.
Dodrio
Learns Quick Attack. I've never run Dodrio, so someone that actually knows something about RBY will have to tell me how viable Dodrio is in this setting instead of using Persian. If Golem/Rhydon usage is increased in this metagame, I imagine Bubblebeam Persian fairs better, and Exeggutor/Gengar may be less prevalent, making Persian the better choice.
Tauros
Learns Surf if Exeggutor is not a problem and Golem/Rhydon is. Hyper Beam is nerfed, meaning Double-Edge could be a replacement. It's a tradeoff between netting a kill and being revenge killed, or surviving for later while being less dangerous.
------
Jynx
Jynx will have to use Blizzard against Zam, because Sleep is going to be blocked. With Exeggutor probably not being used as a lead and SLP being a bad status, Jynx will likely be less useful now.
Exeggutor
Really gets shafted. Gains no noteworthy moves and Substitute blocks status, seed, explosion and Mega Drain. Sleep doesn't last as long either. Can still counter Golem/Rhydon, but is not the threat he used to be. Probably should run Psychic/Stun Spore/Double-Edge/Explosion - it can still explode if the opponent is slower (paralyzed) or doesn't have sub, and Double-Edge is needed to break subs. Recoil will hurt, a lot.
Gengar
Also shafted. Though he gains Ice Punch for coverage, his ability to Explode and, to an extent, Drain is compromised. Sleep is also less reliable now - getting Hypnosis is hard enough, but what if they wake up immediately afterward? Subs will also block Hypnosis.
Chansey
The ability to spread PRZ or to FRZ is compromised by Substitute, meaning Chansey can do nothing to Zam unless it catches it on the switch.
If Double-Edge kills, there is no recoil. Thus DE may replace Hyper Beam in some situations.
I could see Rhydon potentially tying Golem in usefulness, for Golem probably doesn't want to explode on a PKM that can use Substitute, making the opportunities to explode even more difficult. That said, this can create a bigger mind-game between using Sub or attacking Golem in certain situations. If Rhydon/Golem have sub themselves, they can prevent Mega Drain from a PRZed Gengar or Exeggutor, but Psychic/Ice Punch is still a problem. Exeggutor will probably not be as common, though.
Please tell me all my mistakes both above and below.
Lead Jolteon - Tbolt, Twave, Substitute, Double Kick
Alakazam - Psychic, Substitute, Twave, Recover
Tauros - Body Slam, Blizzard, Earthquake, Hyper Beam/Double-Edge
Rhydon - Body Slam, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Substitute
Starmie - Recover, Surf, Psychic, Confuse Ray/Thunderbolt
Hypno - Amnesia, Psychic, Reflect, Rest
It would become important to secure PRZ on everything before they set up Substitutes, making Jolteon useful. Zam should be used sparingly as an Exeggutor counter to prevent Amnesia from setting up, and if Exeggutor doesn't exist it can be used even more freely. Surf over Blizzard on Starmie gives it needed power against Alakazam, Hypno, and Rhydon, and Starmie is saving the PRZ job for Jolteon and Zam.
Alternatively I could bump up Zam to lead and replace Jolt with Persian so that Hypno is less of a problem late-game.
Thanks for any input and humoring me with this, because I know Stadium play and Tradebacks is basically non-existent in the competitive sense. For disclosure, this thread is pretty self-motivated because I play with these rules with my friends pretty often. That said, I think this could be a somewhat fresh look at RBY and fun.
