Golduck Discussion

[t3h Icy]

(Note, I'm not claiming Golduck is OU or anything in this thread, I'm just showing ways he can be somewhat viably used in an OU environment).

Golduck is basically an inferior Slowbro. Slowbro has more versatility with moves, way higher Defense, better HP and less Speed. Less Speed could be argued better or worse, since it's easier to setup with Golduck, but you may CH more often when you don't want to.

So what does Golduck do that makes him worth using over Slowbro? Well, he has Counter (like Slowbro) and can use it somewhat better. Golduck also has less offensive moves like Thunder Wave and Psychic, and has a worse type (pretty much unarguable). But one thing that sticks out is Golduck learns Hydro Pump.

Having the same Special, Golduck's Surf is equal to Slowbro's but with Hydro Pump doing over 1.25x the damage of Surf, it can be very destructive and can KO many things quicker than Surf could, not to mention Golduck is faster.

Here are some examples where Hydro Pump is more useful:

3x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Alakazam, Surf has an 11/39 chance to.
2x Amnesia + Hydro 2HKOs Alakazam with a chance of 7/39.
1x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Persian with a chance of 9/39.
2x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Gengar with a chance of 5/39.
3x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Gengar, Surf has an 11/39 chance to.
3x Amnesia + Hydro 2HKOs Chansey, Surf has a 1202/1521 chance to (79%).
2x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Jynx.
2x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Tauros, Surf has a 2/3 chance to.
3x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Snorlax, Surf has a 2/39 chance to.
3x Amnesia + Hydro OHKOs Articuno with a chance of 32/39.

And of course there's a lot more for lesser viable Pokemon, and partially damaged Pokemon.

Now, Hydro Pump also has an accuracy problem of 80%, Golduck has nearly triple the CH chance, and Hydro Pump also can run out of PP. So you have to work Golduck properly so that using Hydro Pump is beneficial, and with a little luck of hitting enough times and not CHing.

So how do you use Golduck? For starters, Golduck does not have Thunder Wave like Slowbro, so there's a bit more pressure for you to Paralyze Pokemon beforehand, and Psychics (mainly Alakazam) need to be taken care of too, or at least damaged/Paralyzed.

Golduck's extra Speed can be nice when setting up however. Exeggutor, Chansey, Snorlax and others are all slower giving Golduck a chance to setup before they can attack (or FP :>), and this also helps when attacking if Golduck gets Paralyzed (especially against Chansey). So it has some nice points, but CHing after the setup can be annoying.

So what moveset should Golduck use? Well, if you give Golduck Surf, you should realistically be using Slowbro, so Hydro Pump is a must. Likewise, Amnesia and Rest are part of the set. The last move can be interesting. Counter is nice for the Normals (barring Explosion) so you can psuedo-wall your opponent of Physical attacks (since Golduck's Special will be too high). Blizzard is also nice for Exeggutor and Zapdos, but doesn't have much use otherwise, though those two Pokemon are ones Golduck will want to avoid. You could also double up on Water moves by having Surf as well for damage output versatility, so you can save PP and avoid the risk of missing.

Is this enough and can Golduck make it work? It's a lot harder to setup than Slowbro, even if he's faster, and Golduck has to use Hydro Pump which has a bunch of risks, but with proper setup and enough Paralysis, Golduck's Hydro Pump could put the opponent's team in much more danger than Slowbro with Surf.

So what do you think? Is this a possible idea for Golduck to be useful, or is it too much of a pain getting it to work to be worthwhile?

[jorgen]

I personally find amnesia abusers in general to be more trouble than they're worth, but Golduck's speed sets him apart from the Slowbros and Snorlaxes of the world. Being faster than Egg and Lapras is certainly nice, though it sorely misses Slowbro's ability to tank physicals. Slowbro's got defenisve capabilities to compliment his offensive potential, but Golduck's speed lets it get more chances to attack. I'd say he's worth the occasional look.

[Consumptus]

I agree.
Before you even set up Amnesia, Chansey or Zam has come in and paralyzed you which effectively leaves you open to revenge kills at the very least.

At the same time, if you find the opportunity to set up you can sweep just as effectively as Swords Dance Victreebel, Kingler etc.

But then, if you set up that opportunity... couldn't you have just attacked with Tauros, Starmie, Zam, Snorlax?

[WaterWizard]

- Amnesia, HydroPump, Rest, and "something interesting," eh? Are we allowed to use "interesting" with Golduck? I'd say "No!" Confusion is kind of interesting, but that only works on Poliwrath. Blizzard and Counter are thoroughly uninteresting, and they're really your only two options. Problem is, that leaves you with no 100% accurate move. 999 Special doesn't help if you miss. Perhaps dual-water moves?

- Golduck has 30 less HP than Slowbro, which makes him 1HKO'd by a crit Tbolt from Gengar, Chansey, and even Starmie.

- If you had time to set up Golduck, you could have set up Kingler.

[Crystal_]

Golduck is 3HKOed by most STAB physical hits, so rest will rarely be working. +2 Hydro Pump 2HKO on Snorlax is definitely nice (and main advantage over Surf) but you'll still miss the 100% STAB move vs Tauros, Alakazam etc and the 24 pps for Chansey/Starmie/Slowbro. So i'll go with Surf / Submission/Hydro Pump / Blizzard / Amnesia.
Speed is cool but Golduck is definitely inferior than Slowbro vs most special walls, mainly because he can't TW (it can outspeed Chansey and 3HKO though, and 2HKO with a CH; REALLY nice). Moreover, it takes more damage from physical stuff like Tauros as well. It's completely worthless against Starmie though, just saying. Nonetheless, it belongs to these cool UUs that can make an impact in some OU battles, yet it will just suck in most.

BTW, since you like these ones, I suggest doing a Golduck vs Poliwrath? Worse typing, but more unpredictability in Hypnosis, STAB Submission and ¿Psychic?

[t3h Icy]

Apr 15, 2011 8:09:52 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

- If you had time to set up Golduck, you could have set up Kingler.

Amnesia covers Grass and Electric much better, but yeah, Kingler is a bit more useful when setup since he's a mixed sweeper.

Apr 15, 2011 8:32:39 GMT -8 Crystal_ said:

BTW, since you like these ones, I suggest doing a Golduck vs Poliwrath? Worse typing, but more unpredictability in Hypnosis, STAB Submission and ¿Psychic?

I might do Poliwrath next, but he's basically a bad Golduck (which is a bad Slowbro) with Hypnosis.

[jorgen]

Poli's more than just a "bad Golduck with Hypnosis", because Hypnosis does a lot to change up what he can do; at the very least, he's got something to do against other waters. He still keeps the speed advantage against everything that matters, too. He's got more bulk than Golduck as well, except for the obvious Psychic weakness, which is the main thing dragging him down vs. Golduck.

[Crystal_]

Unless your opponent is running Alakazam AND Starmie I deem Poli better imo. Hypnosis and STAB Submission are pretty dangerous combined with Amnesia and special STAB.

[t3h Icy]

I'm not too crazy for Hypnosis on Poliwrath, since it's even more luck based and it requires that you haven't put anything to Sleep beforehand, which is a bit contradictory for a setup Pokemon (unless you play late sleep).

Submission is nice though: Submission vs Chansey - 506-430 (72%-61%).

One thing that sucks with Poliwrath too is he can't reach 999 Special, and it does cost him taking out some things such as Alakazam (3x Amnesia + Surf does max 312), but Poliwrath does have Hydro Pump.

Poliwrath is very versatile, but you can't fit everything into the same set. I would use Golduck over Poliwrath personally, but Poliwrath can be a lot better if you get Hypnosis to work well for you.

[Crystal_]

Neither of Golduck or Poliwrath are getting +6 special anyway.