Gyarados Discussion

[t3h Icy]

SPOILER: Click to show

By request from Brookman. =P Gyarados has only been seriously used here by Underboss, but he wasn't quite skilled enough and Gyarados requires some serious prediction to be successful.

Gyarados has amazing stats, a nice movepool, but is not really viable due to two key reasons: Typing and Speed. His Typing is actually pretty nice defensively barring the Electric weakness, but he can only attack for STAB with Water, which isn't handy in OU. His Speed also has a hard time keeping up with Pokemon and doesn't have other things to make up for it (such as Snorlax's power, Exeggutor's versatility, etc).

Gyarados has dominating stats, particularly 393 HP, 348 Attack and 298 Special, so he can both take and give attacks. Of course the main problem is the 4x Electric weakness, but it's not as bad as people often give off.

Gengar's Thunderbolt - 391-333 (99%-85%)
Electrode's Thunderbolt - 426-362 (108%-92%) (20/39 to OHKO)

So while Gyarados should still avoid Electric attacks, he can survive any non-STAB Thunderbolt (except Mewtwo's, 29/39). This allows him the Body Slam + Hyper Beam combo on Chansey, among other things.

He survives Electric attacks better than some people may think, but that's just one tiny aspect. What can Gyarados do for you? One small thing involves his typing, being immune to Ground and OHKOing them back with Surf. While Pokemon like Exeggutor and Starmie are fine too, taking no damage is helpful and being Physical, Gyarados can follow-up on a switch somewhat better (such as Chansey or Alakazam). You still have to watch for Rock Slide though.

Basically, Gyarados is a decent hybrid sweeper. I recommend using Hyper Beam on all sets since it's a great finisher, but I also suggest always using Thunderbolt, because otherwise, you should probably just use Kingler. That leaves picking two of Surf/Blizzard/Body Slam. Body Slam is also helpful for attacking Physically and Surf is his STAB attack, while Blizzard is for type coverage.

Thunderbolt vs Starmie - 165-140 (51%-43%)
Blizzard vs Exeggutor - 176-150 (45%-38%)
Body Slam vs Alakazam - 134-114 (43%-36%)
Hyper Beam vs Alakazam - 235-200 (75%-64%)
Body Slam vs Chansey - 232-197 (33%-28%)
Hyper Beam vs Chansey - 408-347 (58%-49%)
Surf vs Tauros - 152-130 (43%-37%)

Gyarados can hit most Pokemon for fair damage, but he's not on the winning side of a lot of match-ups. I would suggest using Gyarados as a late sweeper that can handle everything without setting up. He would need a lot of Paralysis support, but he should be able to get by, and his HP should hold up against anything that needs to be 2HKO'd. Fortunately against Chansey, Thunderbolt is often the dropped move for utility moves such as Counter, Sing, Reflect, etc.

To be honest, Gyarados really doesn't feel in place in OU. He's an average Pokemon in that environment and I'd only suggest you use him for hybrid sweeping or some odd situation where Gyarados can work better than others. Mostly, Gyarados would be a Pokemon that can do one thing and follow up on switches, such as scaring a Ground and still being able to handle Chansey, unlike Starmie, Lapras, etc.

But he is pretty freaking sweet and your team gains a lot of style points using him.

[Nitro]

Gyarados sucks, what an incredible waste of time reading the first half of that was.

[Crystal_]

Hydro Pump.

Nitro: Gyarados isn't so bad against your Cloyster team. The problem of these inferior pokes has always been not being able to switch-in into anything, fact often forgotten by people that consider them viable just because they can threaten everything in the switch-in, despite this switch-in just happening once in most cases, before Gyara/Dnite/Nido/etc dies, as a result of the first statement.
Asleep Cloyster gives Gyara free switches. Something it enjoys, allowing it not to suck so much.

[Isa]

GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

So I've used Gyarados a lot in friendlies recently, coming in on an EQ from Golem/Rhydon mostly but also on Mega Drains, Recover and Softboiled (not as common). I haven't tried out a lot of movesets, but I can tell you this - Body Slam is ESSENTIAL. Even if it isn't a STAB attack, coming from 348 attack it really hurts the common switch-ins Alakazam and Chansey. I've had a lot of Starmie's going in against me as well, which should be enough reason to use TBolt. I've used Surf over TBolt a lot though and while it "eases" prediction (you'll always use BSlam), you really suffer in the Starmie matchup. Getting a TBolt in CAN OHKO with a crit, and 2HKO with two high rolls. If you get Starmie paralyzed beforehand (or through Tbolt), you can stay in and fight - Recover won't help a lot and TBolt is really fearsome for both, but you survive one which is enough.
AVOID THUNDER WAVE - not only versus Starmie but versus everyone. Gyarados lacks speed and usually needs paralyzed opponents to operate. Getting paralyzed is very bothersome. Only take it if you can guarantee a kill. You can switch in on weak Body Slams if you think you'll gain something, but generally, other pokes will be better suited to take it (Gengar, Golem/Rhydon, Exeggutor...).
Anyway, moveset...we've already decided on Body Slam and Thunder Bolt. I agree with Icy that you should always have Hyper Beam - it really hurts your opponent to be hit by one due to its raw killing power. This leaves us with one choice - Surf or Blizzard? While Surf is your strongest attack, the Pokemon that you will face will almost never be weak to Surf. The only exception is Golem/Rhydon, which is your only safe switch in, but Blizzard hurts enough for them to run away. Blizz is also useful against Exeggutor and if you predict a Zapdos switch, while Surf doesn't really add anything besides good damage versus Pokemon with high defense and no other weaknesses (Tauros). And even then, you need the paralysis to stand a chance - my recommended moveset is therefore Hyper Beam/Body Slam/Thunderbolt/Blizzard.

If you want a team to run Gyarados in, make sure he's the only Flying in your team - you can't handle having two. Include pokes that will drag your opponents Golem/Rhydon out - experiment with Chansey, Jolteon, Gengar, Snorlax and the like. Zapdos seems natural to bring Golem out but that'd be having two flyers, which you don't need, and Golem won't use EQ against Zapdos mostly. Have Zam and Chansey to soak up the hits you'll take from Starmie/Chansey/Gengars coming in on you.

I think that's it. Tl;dr- Body Slam/Thunderbolt on switches, drop Surf, no other flyers, GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Isa]

Btw, Gengar seems like he should be a problem. Strangely enough, I have no experience at all in that match-up. I recommend switching out if one comes in, or if you can predict it, go Zam/Golem/whatever at once.

[t3h Icy]

Yeah, basically what I said, except you've proven your points by actually using him.

[Isa]

You leave a tossup between Surf, BSlam and Blizzard though.

Both WW and nerd argued for Hydro Pump, over BSlam (WW) and I thinki TBolt (nerd). I don't agree with them, so I'll let them bring up why.

[WaterWizard]

What? I didn't say over Body Slam. I said over Blizzard.

Depends on what you want your Gyarados to do...

Body Slam and Hyper beam are non-negotiable. Then pick two of these: Hydro Pump/Surf, Thunderbolt, Blizzard, Reflect.

BS, HB, HP, Reflect really shines late game. Just switch in on Snorlax (or paralyzed Tauros) when they are using Earthquake, set up Reflect, and sweep.

Thunderbolt is kind of silly, since you have to run from Starmie/Lapras anyway. Blizzard is only for Eggy. Thus, a STAB water move easily finds its way into most serious movesets.

[Isa]

Oh yeah, sorry, my bad about BSlam/Blizzard.

[subsmoke]

i think if you're gonna use gyarados you should always use hydro pump. all it really has over tauros is it hits harder with special moves so you should take advantage of that. otherwise you got pretty much a slower less powerful tauros.

[t3h Icy]

There's no harm in having both though. It's like using Alakazam alongside Mewtwo in Ubers, despite Alakazam is just a mini Mewtwo.

[Isa]

Also, Tauros can't switch in without taking damage on Earthquake

[garrinred]

Sept 4, 2011 12:10:41 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

There's no harm in having both though. It's like using Alakazam alongside Mewtwo in Ubers, despite Alakazam is just a mini Mewtwo.

Just........no. Ahem:

Amnesia, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, AMNESIA, Fire Blast, SELFDESTRUCT, 318 Attack.

Oh, and did I mention Amnesia?

[Zilch]

What to know what Alakazam can do that Mewtwo can't?

Kinesis.

[jorgen]

Even then, Mewtwo gets flash, which is basically the same thing.

Anyway, Gyara's not all that bad. Having gone up against Isa's a couple times before, it gets solid switch-in opportunities (mostly against grounds). It's basically the perfect mon to punish the opponent for firing off EQs from these grounds, though Gyara admittedly doesn't get many other opportunities to switch in. If you're desperate, maybe Snorlax EQ if it's packing Hydro Pump/Reflect; otherwise, you need to rely on sleeping mons, fps, and predicted switches to stuff like, say, paralyzed Alakazams if you want to get Gyara in. It takes a good deal of prediction to use, but once it's in a favorable matchup (again, usually against grounds), nothing can come in particularly well against it.

[WaterWizard]

Seems like Kingler kind of outclasses Gyarados in most cases though.

[Isa]

Disagreement, Kingler can't do good unless it's versus paralyzed opponents in general and doesn't have any safe switch ins. He's more of a late game monster. Gyarados can be used during any time of the game, albeit he works better from midgame and onwards.

[jorgen]

Kingler doesn't have an EQ immunity to abuse. That's Gyara's biggest selling point.

[WaterWizard]

Isa, your arguments don't make sense. Gyarados and Kingler can be considered the same speed, functionally, in the OU metagame. So the "paralyzed opponents" thing applies to both of them equally. Furthermore, Kingler takes less damage than Gyarados from Normal, Electric, and Ice attacks. Gyarados can come in on EQ, Mega Drain (lol) and Psychic (Surf) better. So your argument that he comes in better is also inaccurate; it's about equal or in Kingler's favor.

jorgen, I agree. Gyarados and Dragonite are appealing and fun for that very reason. Even so, Kingler doesn't take too much from a Tauros Earthquake, and he is going to do about the same thing Gyarados would (or better), after the initial switch-in.

I know they're not identical, but they are very similar. I stand by that statement.

[YellowRBY]

Dragonite > Gyarados?

[Isa]

GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Yes, if Wrap is not allowed. If Wrap is allowed, Dragonite is miles ahead.

[David the Chansey]

haha I'm guessing you meant to say no, Isa and yeah I agree that Gyarados is better than Dragonite if wrap isn't allowed, partly because it has stab attacks, and partly because arguably ice attacks are more common than electric.

[Dre]

Depending on the set it's running, it's either an inferior dragonite or kingler.

If it's running blizzard it's basically an inferior dragonite, who has better stats and things like thunder wave and wrap.

If it's running a water attack (particularly if it's also running reflect) it's an inferior kingler.

Coming in on grounds is gimmicky because after the first time you run the risk of getting lured into rock slides.

Kingler has a better matchup than gyarados against tauros and snorlax, the only thing gyarados has over him is being able to come in for free on earthquake. In all other scenarios kingler is better, I'm pretty sure crabhammer 2HKOs tauros and is more accurate than hydro pump. Plus kingler is better late game in general due to swords dance.

[Isa]

The major drawback of Dragonite is the lack of STAB and a much more crippling *4 weakness. Assuming non-wrap (because with Wrap it's not even a question, Dragonite is much better), Dragonite has the advantage of a slightly higher attack and defense stat plus Thunder Wave, but gets no STAB, resulting in a major power drop as he cannot set up with Swords Dance, Amnesia or even Growth.

Compare the following sets:

Gyarados
-Hydro Pump
-Hyper Beam
-Body Slam
-Thunderbolt

Dragonite
-Hyper Beam
-Body Slam/Thunderbolt
-Blizzard
-Thunder Wave

Both of these have a guaranteed 2HKO on Alakazam and Jynx with Body Slam+Hyper Beam. The third weakest OU Pokémon on the physical side is Persian, and Dragonite lacks 10 damage to even have a chance to 2HKO. Gyarados likewise lacks damage, but it's not very much more than Dragonite - 25 damage away, if my calcs are right. The increased attack on Dragonite simply isn't very significant.

However, this is where Gyarados shines with his Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump deals almost as much damage as Hyper Beam versus Persian (and following that, everyone else that has similar defense and special stats), doing 200 damage maximum on its own. That's huge power that Dragonite cannot match.

[Dre]

Aug 25, 2012 4:18:35 GMT -8 Isa said:

The major drawback of Dragonite is the lack of STAB and a much more crippling *4 weakness. Assuming non-wrap (because with Wrap it's not even a question, Dragonite is much better), Dragonite has the advantage of a slightly higher attack and defense stat plus Thunder Wave, but gets no STAB, resulting in a major power drop as he cannot set up with Swords Dance, Amnesia or even Growth.

Compare the following sets:

Gyarados
-Hydro Pump
-Hyper Beam
-Body Slam
-Thunderbolt

Dragonite
-Hyper Beam
-Body Slam/Thunderbolt
-Blizzard
-Thunder Wave

Both of these have a guaranteed 2HKO on Alakazam and Jynx with Body Slam+Hyper Beam. The third weakest OU Pokémon on the physical side is Persian, and Dragonite lacks 10 damage to even have a chance to 2HKO. Gyarados likewise lacks damage, but it's not very much more than Dragonite - 25 damage away, if my calcs are right. The increased attack on Dragonite simply isn't very significant.

However, this is where Gyarados shines with his Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump deals almost as much damage as Hyper Beam versus Persian (and following that, everyone else that has similar defense and special stats), doing 200 damage maximum on its own. That's huge power that Dragonite cannot match.

Well if you're talking about a hydro pump set, then you should compare it to kingler rather than dragonite. Kingler has a shot at 2HKOing tauros with better accuracy and has better defence.

Gyarados does have thunderbolt for starmie though, but mid-game it's probably better to body slam on the switch. Late game kingler has a shot at OHKOing it with a boosted hyper beam if starmie is paralysed. Both pokemon are losing 1v1 against a healthy starmie, and both have a shot if starmie is crippled in some way.

[Isa]

The initial question was Dragonite vs Gyarados.

And yeah, losing Swords Dance for Thunderbolt (or Blizzard) is an interesting trade, but it makes them act in different ways. Gyarados is very much hit-and-run - predict a switch and hit with a super-effective move or Body Slam. Kingler can do that too, but is easier to predict as he only has Normal moves and Crabhammer, so you're probably better off using Swords Dance, making him a sweeper.

Think of Gyarados more as a Starmie that also hits on the physical side with Body Slam/Hyper Beam, but lacks recovery. I don't think that Gyarados and Kingler are too similar. Gyarados can't do Kingler's job very well, but Kingler isn't that good at the job Gyarados does either (although better).

[Dre]

The comparison between surf gyarados and kingler comes from the fact that they're physical waters, but I can see the reference to being a physical starmie.

In saying that though, in then has competition from lapras in that role. Lapras is basically a non-recovering starmie whose main draws are better STAB and having a shot at beating chansey.

Again, lapras has a better STAB, a better movepool, better bulk, essentially the same speed tier, and has a better matchup against the normals and starmie. I'm guessing gyarados has a better matchup against chansey though, which is a pretty big draw.

[Isa]

Lapras only barely has a better movepool, since the moves she gets that Gyarados doesn't are Sing and Confuse Ray. She gets STAB Blizzard and is a better user of Rest, but that's another thing.

Lapras is obviously oriented towards the specialist side, having only 268 attack does not a mixed attacker make. It's without a doubt a better Pokémon in most cases, though - the only Pokémon you're likely to see that outspeeds Lapras but not Gyarados is Cloyster. Both of these Pokémon beat Cloyster easily though.

[Dre]

Aug 27, 2012 3:19:03 GMT -8 Isa said:

Lapras only barely has a better movepool, since the moves she gets that Gyarados doesn't are Sing and Confuse Ray. She gets STAB Blizzard and is a better user of Rest, but that's another thing.

Lapras is obviously oriented towards the specialist side, having only 268 attack does not a mixed attacker make. It's without a doubt a better Pokémon in most cases, though - the only Pokémon you're likely to see that outspeeds Lapras but not Gyarados is Cloyster. Both of these Pokémon beat Cloyster easily though.

But if you don't have physical STAB or swords dance, the only time you ever really use physical attacks are things like alakazam and chansey. It's not a true mixed sweeper, but if you're using lapras over starmie it's so that you fight chansey with it.

So in that sense that's what gyarados is competing against. You only use gyarados if you want your water to hit from both sides, which is part of the reason why you would use lapras in that slot as well.