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Post by gunbladelad on Sept 15, 2010 16:46:21 GMT -8
OK, some people say that the competitive nature of R/B/Y has dried up over the years, due to the metagame not changing too much. I have an option - open up tradebacks as an possibility for expansion.
Granted, there's plenty of arguements before and against. However, I'll explain my viewpoint for it, but for that, I need to cover a little bit of history.
Even in Gen 1, there's been move expansions on the basic games. For example, Yellow expanded on the potential movesets from Red & Blue, and Stadium introduced SURF for Pikachu/Raichu, as well as Amnesia for Psyduck & golduck - All these additions were welcomed by Red/Blue purists. (One moveset addiotion that never made it to mainstream acceptance was FLY on Pikachu - a VERY limited giveaway in Japan. As such, Pokemon Stadium recognises it as a legitimate move)
In Gen 2, trading from R/B/Y is accepted, except for illegal movesets (G/S/C egg moves combined with R/B/Y TMs), and all the NYPC move additions were publicly accepted - as were all the moveset additions from Crystal. Even Stadium G/S' additions were accepted without fuss.
However, many pokemon in R/B/Y can VASTLY benefit on TMs, move tutor or egg moves from G/S/C. Granted, while some go from being powerful to overpowered, other pokemon that might be relagated to UU can suddenly find themselves capable of battling on the OU field. Just 1 example is haze. in pure R/B/Y, the amount of Haze users is 2 - both of which tend to die in a couple of hits. With tradebacks, there's a selection of tougher pokemon who can actually utilise it & survive long enough to attack.
I believe that tradeback acceptance has got to be good for R/B/Y battling, as it widens the amount of Pokemon capable of battling in OU. The OU pokemon that go from strong to overpowered with tradeback movesets can simply be moved to "Uber (tradeback)". Those pokemon could stay in OU without tradeback movesets.
However, there's going to be a lot of people that disagree with me, so I'll finish with this.
If variety is the spice of life, why doesn't this apply to classic Pokemon?
EDIT - I have selected "Needs more discussion", rather than "yes". you don't need to say what you voted, but arguements both for and against would be good for getting discussion going...
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 15, 2010 17:00:41 GMT -8
We actually ran an official tournament with Tradebacks awhile back. Jolteon, Hypno and Persian are all significantly boosted, and it's actually fairly balanced.
Also RBY is fairly dried up, but once the metagame has changed a bit and other Pokemon have become more viable. =)
Zilch is really good with TBs.
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Post by gunbladelad on Sept 15, 2010 17:40:05 GMT -8
I'm just trying to see if it's viable for tradebacks to actually be intergrated into standard R/B/Y gameplay.
As I said, some OU pokemon would need to be either classed as uber, or barred from tradeback sets, otherwise they could possibly unbalance things badly.
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Post by WaterWizard on Sept 15, 2010 21:07:26 GMT -8
Two Words: Lovely Kiss
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Post by t3h Icy on Sept 16, 2010 5:52:40 GMT -8
Actually it balances out fairly well, but certain Pokemon become a bit ridiculous. You could argue for some, the same way as Snorlax in GSC being OU.
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Post by Crystal_ on Sept 16, 2010 10:39:12 GMT -8
It depends on if people likes it. If not it will be a week-long metagame that is forgotten after a tournament that even might not finish.
Obv, the TB metagame cannot be the main metagame, because unlike in GSC, the TB moves did not exist when RBY was created.
The metagame is interesting but I can not really find something special that makes it something marvelous. LKLax is funny tho, but that Amnesia metagame was pretty messy for me.
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Post by LucasBM on Dec 22, 2010 19:08:21 GMT -8
I guess we should get back to this discussion.
I found out that Persian can get a completelly new role in tradeback metagame, and it caught my attention. Maybe we should try to created an integrated tier list (listing tradeback and non-tradeback tier for each pokémon)
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 22, 2010 20:00:08 GMT -8
We actually had a tournament and a thread about Tradebacks, both going over how it affects the game, though we haven't taken on making tiers for them. Could be an interesting project; we managed to make tiers for Little Cup, so it's very possible. I'm not doing it though. =P |
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Post by WaterWizard on Dec 23, 2010 3:56:14 GMT -8
it would definitely need to be an alternate thread from the main tier thread.
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Post by gunbladelad on Dec 23, 2010 13:37:23 GMT -8
By all means, feel free to hijack this thread to discuss any & all information about tradeback tiers.
Obviously, there's some OU pokemon that, with tradeback moves, could possibly go over into ubers in terms of power.
I'm sure that some of the UU and NU pokemon may also be able to shift tiers too, with tradeback moves.
Remember, the moves did exist in R/B/Y, just on different Pokemon.
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 23, 2010 14:08:35 GMT -8
Yes we know how Tradebacks work; we ran a tournament for it awhile ago.
The only thing that might be "Uber-worthy" is Snorlax, but even then, he's fine in OU.
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Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
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Post by Zilch on Dec 23, 2010 14:15:22 GMT -8
Persian is cool in TBs due to it usurping Gengar as the fastest sleeper, even though it's still completely walled by said Gengar, and Amnesia Hypno is a beast if you use it right. Ice Punch Alakazam is also pretty nice.
We could make tiers for TBs, but if it's just a game that's almost never played outside of tournaments, the current tiers can suffice... well, maybe Hypno should slide up to OU, though.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Dec 23, 2010 18:14:48 GMT -8
The only purpose of making tiers for TBs would be if we planned to play lower tiers; all the pokemon are available in OU anyways, regardless of what tier they're in.
Actually, UU TBs would be kinda cool... we'd have to do a lot of testing to make tiers though...
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Post by garrinred on Dec 23, 2010 22:29:29 GMT -8
<3 Confuse Ray Starmie.
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Post by subsmoke on Dec 24, 2010 0:53:44 GMT -8
Obviously, there's some OU pokemon that, with tradeback moves, could possibly go over into ubers in terms of power. Nah I don't think so because monsters like Chansey and Exeggutor don't really get any new stuff from tradebacks. It's really the ones that need the extra boost that get it. |
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Post by WaterWizard on Dec 24, 2010 2:06:38 GMT -8
that's true, nerd. and i don't foresee a "BL" tradebacks tournament lol.
snorlax and persian become sleepers, gengar and zam get type coverage, and hypno joins OU. that's about all that matters.
quick attack dodrio is still awesome.
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Post by garrinred on Dec 24, 2010 10:27:29 GMT -8
In OU:
*Zam gets Ice Punch for Eggy/Golem/Rhydon and Thunderpunch for Starmie (lol fire punch for jynx/eggy), making it even more awesome than it was before.
*Gengar also gets the elemental punches, which is kind of cool too.
*Starmie gets Confuse Ray. <3 Death Star
*Persian gets Hypnosis.
*Snorlax gets Lovely Kiss.
In UU....
*Clefable gets Amnesia
*Dodrio gets Quick Attack.
*Dragonite gets a whopping 13 different moves, though none of them will make it OU without Wrap.
*Haunter, notably, does NOT get the elemental punches.
*Hypno gets Amnesia and all the elemental punches. OU? I think so.
*Kadabra, unlike Haunter, DOES get the elemental punches.
*Mr. Mime gets Hypnosis, as well as the ever-so-popular elemental punches.
*Nidoking and Nidoqueen get Lovely Kiss.
*Raichu gets Sing(if anyone cares).
*Sandslash gets Counter.
*Tentacruel gets Confuse Ray.
*Victreebel gets Lovely Kiss too.
*Aerodactyl gets Earthquake. Also Rock Throw for STAB, but that's too weak and innacurate for anyone to care.
*Golduck gets Hypnosis. Also Psychic(though no STAB on it).
*Machamp gets Ice Pucnh and Thunderpunch, as well as Light Screen and Meditate. These all seem mediocre though.
*Marowak gets Rock Slide and (<3) Swords Dance. Go Marowak!
*Ninetales gets Hypnosis
*Tangela gets Amnesia.
Did I miss anything important?
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Post by t3h Icy on Dec 24, 2010 11:26:29 GMT -8
Hypno becomes OU, Snorlax becomes top OU, and the lead game changes quite a bit.
Don't forget how much each change affects everything. For example, Exeggutor may not get many changes, but due to all the new Ice Punch users and alternative Sleepers, Exeggutor loses some viability, and drops to the lower OU section.
There's a lot more opportunity to be creative too like Ground and Electric Sleepers.
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Post by KiNGskruffi on Dec 25, 2010 4:44:09 GMT -8
(lol fire punch for jynx/eggy) I actually do like the idea of giving Zam the Fire Punch. It's good vs Jynx and Eggy and you could try to burn some physical attacker like Tauros, but I guess it would be better to paralyze it. |
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 6, 2011 13:30:00 GMT -8
Egg takes a IP, Zam still beats Jynx bar freeze, so it's better to go with IP for freezing (those interminable matchups against amnesiers.
Also Nidoking learns Amnesia, for these creative players. Amnesia+LK+IB+EQ, lets go.
LKLax is awesome
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Post by t3h Icy on Jan 7, 2011 6:48:05 GMT -8
Lovely Kiss and Amnesia can't be on the same set with Nidoking as Amnesia is an Egg move, while Lovely Kiss is a NYPC Egg move. It's impossible to have both. It's the same thing with Amnesia + Barrier with Hypno for example.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 7, 2011 8:01:32 GMT -8
Too bad. Nidoking loses its usefulness then.
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Post by Destiny Warrior on Apr 15, 2011 4:43:26 GMT -8
I'm actually very interested in tradebacks, so I think I'll attempt to revive this thread. Alakazam - Elemental punches sound all dandy, till you realise that a.without Recover, it lacks a lot of survivability b.without Reflect it will struggle a lot more against physicals c.Without Thunder Wave it can't cripple Tauros etc. It needs to sacrifice precius moveslotsfor this purpose, and if it becomes an all-out specialist with Recover, physicals will frighten the shit out of it. Gengar will benefit from Ice Punch to cover Eggy. As a downisde, there is a better sleep lead now(Persian). Persian - I would totally use Screech/Hypnosis/Hyper Beam/Bubblebeam Persian for the giggles. SCreech Hyper Beam looks a bit strong(though unfortunately, Gengar can come in and threaten it after you suck up sleep with something). LKLax would probably be really good. I assume LK/Rest/Body Slam/Earthquake would be THE set? The LK gang would likely promote the use of Sleep bait on teams. Can we like, totally be Dragonite-friendly and unban wrapping moves  ? If Wrap was allowed, I presume AgiliWrap + Blizzard + filler would be the standard set, in order to quickly take out other Dragonite for your team. In a no Wrap metagame(aka standard), it would likely still suck. Marowak with totally be legit in OU with Swords Dance...if given loads of para support. Its just kind of *frail* for OU really. Shame Baton Pass doesn't exist in RBY, GSC JoltWak passing would have been so good.... Hypno is OU with Amnesia/Psychic/Rest/Ice Punch for Eggy or ThunderPunch for Slowbro or lolFire Punch for Jynx(reason being...covering SLowbro is more important since Eggy usage will drop due to the threat of so many Ice Punch users). |
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Apr 15, 2011 7:04:12 GMT -8
We had a tradebacks tournament a long time ago, IIRC. Persian w/o slash is dumb and marowak is still a bad sandslash. Agilinite exists in pure RBY too so I don't see why it's being discussed here, though I will say that wrapping moves are banned for a reason (I suppose we could have a 'wrap allowed' tournament sometime, though).
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Post by Destiny Warrior on Apr 15, 2011 7:10:10 GMT -8
I agree that Persian w/o Slash is kind of weird, but ScreechBeam was kind of tempting haha. Guess I'll jsut go with a normal Hyp/Slash/HBeam/Bubblebeam set.
The Wrap move ban was why i brought D-Nite up, because it didn't seem like Wrap would be banned in this meta(with all the Ice Punch users).
You're probably rigth about Marowak as well. Keep forgetting about Maro not having 568 Attack pre-SD...
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Post by t3h Icy on Apr 15, 2011 7:18:52 GMT -8
I think you're forgetting about Sandslash. Marowak still sucks, but at least he gets an improvement.
TBs is a lot more stally and a lot of OU Pokemon shoot up and down in viability, affecting others and so forth. In my opinion, Snorlax and Tauros are the must-haves of TBs and Snorlax is arguably the best Pokemon.
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Post by WaterWizard on Apr 15, 2011 7:42:00 GMT -8
lol
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Post by Crystal_ on Apr 15, 2011 8:10:48 GMT -8
"568 Attack pre-SD"
it's 516, 512 for SD variants.
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Post by Destiny Warrior on Apr 15, 2011 17:24:23 GMT -8
I'm referring to Gen 3 and later.
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Post by garrinred on Apr 17, 2011 15:08:06 GMT -8
Alakazam - Elemental punches sound all dandy, till you realise that a.without Recover, it lacks a lot of survivability b.without Reflect it will struggle a lot more against physicals c.Without Thunder Wave it can't cripple Tauros etc. It needs to sacrifice precius moveslotsfor this purpose, and if it becomes an all-out specialist with Recover, physicals will frighten the shit out of it.) The punch goes over Reflect/Seismic Toss or Thunder Wave, depending on what you want to have Zam do. Between Psychic and a suitable punch, Stoss isn't as needed. And Zam can go without Reflect just fine. He'll be ok. As for T-wave, you don't necessarily need to cripple Tauros, you just need your opponent to THINK you can cripple Tauros sometimes. Also, Tauros does NOT like a Zam Psychic. |
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? If Wrap was allowed, I presume AgiliWrap + Blizzard + filler would be the standard set, in order to quickly take out other Dragonite for your team. In a no Wrap metagame(aka standard), it would likely still suck.