RBYPlus - Main

[Crystal_]

Not liking it. It's RBYPlus, not GSCPlus

[Isa]

Well, we also have plans to boost Leech Seed to 1/8th of max HP, like it is in future generations. That doesn't make it BWPlus.

Also, we have to realize and accept that the mechanics in RBY aren't perfect, and if we get the opportunity to fix some of them to something that's either more usable or less broken, we should do so (with care, of course). I'd personally rather see Wrap and the like work like they do in future generations rather than how they work in RBY (it'd boost Toxic-stalling nicely and would make it more legit), but I don't think I'd have any general support on that one.

[WaterWizard]

Freeze needs to stay RBY in my opinion.

Fire moves have increased, and Haze is viable.

The only change I could imagine would be adding another type that thaws like Fire.

[Isa]

Oh well.

How about moves that act like Sacred Fire, that you can use while frozen to thaw?

[Isa]

Another thing: What would everyone think of future gen-Disable, where you always disable the move your opponent used most recently?

[WaterWizard]

I prefer the RBY version. But that's just me.

[Isa]

I think that you'd have a much more viable option if you were able to disable Softboiled from Chansey, rather than having to rely on a 25% chance to do the same. The disadvantage is of course that future-gen Disable doesn't work on switches, but I think it's a fair trade.

[WaterWizard]

The random option gives more power to the user, in my opinion. The target doesn't get to choose what is disabled. If you have a good team, you can use disable and then switch to whatever pokemon is now viable due to the disabled move.

I think we need to keep special RBY moves like this one. It's a legacy of the past, and imo it is actually more appealing mechanics anyway.

[Isa]

I think Gust needs a slight boost somehow - it's a Normal type move that lowers Special, which means that the secondary effect isn't taken care of - it doesn't boost itself. This could still be passable if it weren't for the fact that there are only two Pokémon getting access to it, Pidgeot and Butterfree, and none of them get it as a STAB move. Pidgeot doesn't even have access to a special move, and Butterfree has fierce competition to find a place for Gust - Sleep Powder, String Shot, Confusion is three slots already, and you have Recover on the fourth more often than not.

I suggest that Gust turns into a Flying move and/or it gets another secondary effect.

[WaterWizard]

I'd noticed that Gust was probably not very viable due to the non STAB. The intent was to occasionally aid Pidgeot against unstabbed Ice and Thunder attacks but it is really not appealing enough to use in its current state.

We can make it never miss, like Surf and Swift... This simulates Gust hitting during Fly (though not for double power) in future gens.

Gust - Flying, 95 -, 15PP
Surf - Water, 95, -, 15PP
Swift - Normal, 95, -, 15PP

If it is made Flying type (which it would need to be for this effect) I would remove it from Butterfree as she will be able to hit other Bugs too hard.

This also provides Pidgeot with an accurate move that can crit for extra damage (whereas Wing Attack has the crit built in to it).

[Isa]

I don't mind removing it from Butterfree (and I agree with the type change). I haven't yet figured out how to make moves hit during Fly/Dig, though. If I were to find a reference to Swift in the code, that'd solve it, but so far I haven't.

I think Gust would be interesting if it had a 30% chance to increase Pidgeot's speed one stage. It'd make her faster than all other Pokémon bar Electrode and brings something new and exciting to the table. It could also free up a moveslot from Agility.

[Crystal_]

Well, if there is only one mon learning whatever move, I think that move should be something special and unique. And improving Gust will definitely make Pidgeot happy, and we want it happy because it sucks right now.

[Isa]

That reminds me that Pidgeot already has Whirlwind as her unique move - does she need two?

And on another subject: I don't see why Thunder has 75% accuracy when Guillotine has 85%. I'd argue that Bug is a better offensive typing than Electric due to being super effective versus more types, resisted by equally many and Electric attacks being walled by Ground types.

[WaterWizard]

I saw the Guillotine accuracy yesterday and think it could go down to 75%.

Here's what I am thinking...

Gust replaces the current Whirlwind effects, and stays unique to Pidgeot.

Whirlwind becomes a Flying partial-trapping move, learned by all "normal" birds (Pidgeot, Fearow, Dodrio, Farfectch'd), probably the legendary birds, and perhaps Scyther and Golbat.

Thus, my proposed changes:

Guillotine to match Thunder in Accuracy and PP @ Bug, 120, 75%, 5PP, 30% Paralysis
Gust to become Pidgeot's unique powerful attack @ Flying, 150, 75%, 5PP, 30% Confusion
Whirlwind to become a partial trapping move @ Flying, 15, 70%, 10PP, (learnable as above)

What do yall think?

~

I have critiques of some of the other proposals, including the fact that no moves in RBY have a secondary change to raise stats, so a speed fall would have been better if we went that route.

Also, I'm assuming Swift/Surf will work properly when the cart mechanics come. I didn't realize there was a problem even now. We'll need to talk to the developers. Thus, in my first scenario, Gust would work properly eventually.

~

Yeah

[WaterWizard]

Official changes:

Guillotine to match Thunder in Accuracy and PP @ Bug, 120, 75%, 5PP, 30% Paralysis
Gust to become Pidgeot's unique powerful attack @ Flying, 150, 75%, 5PP, 30% Confusion

Pending changes:

Whirlwind to ?

[Isa]

Another move I think we could change: Bite. It's on 15 different Pokémon but the only one I'd put it on is Raticate (even then, competes against Hyper Beam/Bubble/Hyper Fang/Fury Swipes along with Super Fang). I think it could be more used if we boosted it to become like Acid, and let it lower the defenses of the foe instead of having a chance to flinch.

It's either that or we put it on more speedy Normals with Thunder Wave or very shallow movepools if we wanna see it used, IMO.

Also Psywave boost to match Growl

[WaterWizard]

I guess Psywave can go up, but I see then neutralizing physicals too easily. Could be good though, and admittedly I haven't seen the tranny trio much.

I think Bite is a good move and I have used it on a handful of users. A timely finch is fantastic!

[Isa]

Yeah, I'm not gonna push Bite too much, since I'm not entirely convinced it needs a change, though there's certainly a case for it. Not a big deal though, and flinches are indeed fantastic.

Speaking of Tranny Trio - I've used Electabuzz vs. Crystal a fair bit and Magmar some as well. I think both are fine. Jynx however needs a boost in her stats, I think. Her poor defensive typing (only resisting her own STAB's, which is unique to her) and low HP/Defense does enough to hurt her. Since other sleepers are boosted, she doesn't fulfill that role in a satisfying way (being outspeeded by Gengar, Butterfree, Nidoking, Venusaur and possibly someone else I forget) and she's too fragile to be a back-up sleeper, in my opinion. STAB Ice and Psychic is all good, but from what I can remember, the only Recover user (those are the ones you'll send in) that's weak to either of those types is Onix. Her Special stat is only slightly above average as well, so if you hit for neutral damage, you won't do a lot.
I think a boost in defense, for starters, is merited. Possibly a boost in attack as well to make Lick slightly more appealing than it is now.

[WaterWizard]

Have you used Jynx much? I had success when I used her. You know she has near perfect STAB coverage, aside from Slowbro, Starmie, and herself. She has two of the best special types in the game, is a sleeper, has recover, etc. I think you need to play with her more and see her played against you before any adjustments are made.

I'll have more time to battle on vacation next week I think. Try and get some PO people to play, too

[Isa]

I'm holding off on alerting PO folks until we have a more glitch-free release (as always Ghost/Psychic is the issue). The only one I've told is Blitzamarin who has repeatedly stated interest, but I haven't heard anything since then from him.

There's a lot of Pokémon with almost perfect coverage, so that doesn't make her unique. Being a sleeper with Recover is cool, but I'd rather take Butterfree then to get perfect coverage with just the STAB, plus the additional advantage of better bulk, more powerful moves due to higher Special and the better speed.
She does hit 35/81 Pokémon for Super Effective with just her STAB, which is very useful (Butterfree still hits 31 though and again is unresisted), but all teams really should have a sponge like Chansey, Wigglytuff etc. and Jynx will face those more often than not.

[WaterWizard]

Remember that Ice STAB is a rare and fantastic power in RBY.

Make it a project to use her some this month and see what you think. I'll do the same.

I see that she has low stats, but Recover and Psywave help essentially double some of them.

Also, I just remembered that Lick means Jynx beats Slowbro, Starmie, and herself, too, so really Jynx does have perfect coverage with STAB +Lick.

And Butterfree isn't a great poke to compare, because she is arguable overcentralizing at the moment. We may need to nerf her of the Ghost fix isn't enough. (The Ghost fix will both nerf and boost Jynx so I'm not sure how it will impact her overall.)

And as you say, hitting 35/81 pokemon for SE from STAB alone is incredible, especially considering that those STAB attacks have a 30% to lower special or 10/27% to freeze each turn.

You need to remember that Jynx has low stats in regular RBY, too.

[Isa]

Awesome idea that I'm stealing from future generations:
Priority Bide!

[WaterWizard]

That's fine.

[Isa]

Wheeeeee

[Supreme Dirt]

Looking at the changelist this is more like RBY Minus than Plus

[WaterWizard]

Whoops.

Gust - Flying, 150, 75%, 5PP, 30% confusion (Butterfree, Pidgeot)
Whirlwind - Flying, 15, 70%, 10PP, partial trapping (Farfecth'd, Pidgeot)

And Icy has another list of errors...

[t3h Icy]

WaterWizard and I hammered down all the inconsistencies between PO, this thread, and his moves thread, to make sure we're all on the same page. I've fixed up all the errors in this thread, and added blanks to the empty resistances/weaknesses for better aesthetics.

Errors on PO:

-Aurora Beam text: "0% chance to lower Special" (possible error?)
-Dream Eater, Haze text has "Pok@~mon"
-Ember/Thundershock "10% chance to lower Special", should be 30%
-Hi Jump Kick "Charge for the first turn", which is the same text as Skull Bash, etc, but HJK is safe first turn
-Headbutt PP 32, should be 24
-Leech Life PP 8, should be 16
-Rage PP 32, should be 24
-Sleep Powder PP 24, should be 16
-Explosion is 100 power, Selfdestruct is 125 power, but Smog is 200 (Barrage/Sonicboom are 200). Smog is probably 400 power right now, rofl
-Omastar's Special is 248, and should be 348

Changes:
Whirlwind - Flying, 15, 70%, 10PP, partial trapping
Gust - Flying, 150, 75%, 5PP, 30% confusion

Whirlwind is learned by Farfetch'd and Pidgeot
Gust is learned by Butterfree, Pidgeot

And after these are fixed, it's 100% minus what's wrong with the PO coding.

[Isa]

You designed another Wrap move? Come again...and you gave it to two Agility users only?
Even with 70% accuracy, that's something I cannot accept. I will *not* implement that until I've discussed this with you. (I'm just glad that Fire Spin/Agility Moltres hasn't seen any abuse, but...)


All the message-errors are in a certain file that apparently failed to be updated at some point, I think. However, 0% chance to lower Special is nothing but a typo. I've seen it myself and the move works as intended.
The PP errors are fairly minor fortunately, but they are easy to fix. I will admit that I have never paid them any attention whatsoever.

Explosion and Self-Destruct are hardcoded to lower the defense stat of the opponent - it's not something I can add at a whim. So Explosion has 200 base power in reality, Self-Destruct has 250 too, but Smog has 200, because the move is not hardcoded to lower defense. It is not very elegant, but I can't change it.

The Omastar Special stat is a major miss by me if it is true.

[t3h Icy]

WaterWizard's idea, not mine, lol.

And I didn't realize Smog was hardcoded, but that helps!

[Isa]

It's Smog that is NOT hardcoded, lol. Self-Destruct and Explosion that are.

Either way, I say nay to Wrap/Agility, period. I wanna do something about Moltres too.