RBYPlus - Main

[t3h Icy]

*wasn't, I'm tired, lol.

And sure!

[Isa]

OK, my bad. All moves with secondary effects currently have their old paralysis/burn/special drop/you get it ratio. I am fixing this as we speak.

Edit: Scratch that. SOME parts, but not all, are screwed up. This is annoying.

[WaterWizard]

I noticed we hadn't had Gust replace WW on PO (despite a post above saying it was an official change) and I noticed WW's new function hadn't been posted, so I just tried to recall what we'd talked about. The only thing I could think of was a partial-trapping move.

Icy saying, "His idea not mine... lol" is true but also silly because when I said it he said, "That's a great idea!" Furthermore, he proposed the second user (Farfetch'd) who has Agility. I say this not to shift blame but just to show that we don't think it's a crazy idea.

I think the underlying problem is that Isa doesn't like partial-trapping moves, even with 70% accuracy. Figuring out if we are fine with how we have them is something that should precede figuring out what to do with Moltres and with WW.

Personally, I think we should a) let Moltres have FS + Agility and b) let Pidgeot & Farfetch'd have partial-trapping WW + Agility, and see if it gets abused. However, I think 70% accuracy is too high for PT moves anyway. I was thinking 55% might be good.

~

EDIT:

While we're updating those errors, I think maybe we should bump Dragon Rage down to 85% accuracy, with Rock Slide and Hydro Pump. Rock slide is very strong and hits almost everything neutral or super. Dragon hits it all.

No Secondary Effects

Drill Peck - Flying, 90, 100%, 10PP
Rock Throw - Rock, 90, 100%, 10PP
Earthquake - Ground,100, 100%, 10PP
Poisonpowder - Poison, 100, 100%, 10PP
Tail Whip - Ghost, 100, 100%, 10PP
Dragon Rage - Dragon, 120, 85%, 5PP
Hydro Pump - Water, 120, 85%, 5PP
Rock Slide - Rock, 120, 85%, 5PP
Pay Day - Normal, 180, 100%, 1PP

[Isa]

Personally I don't understand why we're including Wrap mechanics - or OHKO ones for that matter - regardless of accuracy.

Anyway, I'm not very interested in who's to blame for adding another Wrap move, I just don't want it there, especially on Agility users.

I am, on the other hand, completely fine with Dragon Rage down to 85% accuracy.

Also I'll fix the new mechanics of Gust in this release - but not until we figure out what Whirlwind becomes. That was why I didn't change it earlier, too (and also I forgot about it later on).

[WaterWizard]

RBYPlus is about fully realizing what RBY was supposed to be. By there very existence, we know that such a vision includes partial-trapping and OHKOs.

As you know, I am the strongest antagonist of wrapping in regular RBY. However, in Plus we have changed it into something that is manageable, without erasing an entire component of the game, a component that is revisited in every subsequent generation. As for OHKOs, they are so rarely able to work properly that they are almost insignificant, but by leaving there we have a richer potential for variation and creativity for all. Your personal distaste for those moves should not deprive others of that enjoyment.

55% accuracy for wrapping moves is extremely generous and guarantees that they will not be a problem, even with Agility on three wrappers (Farfetch'd, Moltres, Pidgeot).

For OHKOs, I am willing to suggest that we program Poison Gas to fail against Poison types. That way each of the three OHKO moves will fail against something (Fissure -> Flying, Horn Drill -> Ghost, Poison Gas -> Poison). I think that would bring some neat consistency and it alludes to Poison types' negation of Poison Spikes, etc, in future gens. However, 20% accuracy is already plenty low enough, and that does not need to be adjusted.

If anything, we can implement the above changes and see how it plays out in the metagame. That has been our mantra all along...

"We'll See"

[Isa]

Very well then. I'll do it, but don't expect me to shout and cheer.


I cannot make Poison Gas fail against any type (bar Steel). That'd require changing part of the source code.
Even then, I don't see them as very big problems either, I just don't think that OHKO moves have a place in any metagame (I don't like RBY freezes either) regardless of accuracy. But my grudge vs. those isn't nearly as strong as vs. Wrap.

[t3h Icy]

The thing with Wrapping moves is they aren't completely broken, but the main problem in RBY with them is how accurate they are. 85% and 70% is only a bit of a difference, but when spamming them, that difference explodes into something much more fair.

Wrap moves at 15 base power and hitting 2-5 times has an average of 45 base power, and only 38.25 when factoring accuracy. This would seem like a poor move, but as everyone knows, it's the mechanics that people dislike. The 85% accuracy also means the opponent has an 85% chance of getting a free turn. If the Wrapper stays, they skip the opponent's turn, if the Wrapper switches, they skip the opponent's turn. Ideally, we'd want Wrap to work in a way like "hit with this, get a free switch". Of course it also gets interesting on both players switching, etc.

For staying in against the Wrapper over consecutive turns without fail, it's 85%, 72%, 61%, 52%, and so forth. So if the Pokemon getting wrapped stays in, they have a 52% chance of taking an average damage of 180 power. That's a lot, on top of the mechanics.

When switching around, it usually has to fail twice, once when switching in, and once during the following turn (as most Wrappers make sure to be faster). The chance of Wrap hitting at least once is 97.75%, and that's brutal.

But, when the accuracy is dropped to 70% for Wrapping moves, the accuracy factored average damage is 31.5, consecutive turns go 70%, 49%, 34%, 24%, and so forth. That deteriorates super fast. And when switching back and forth, the chance of 70% Wrapping moves hitting at least once over two turns is 91%. This is still a lot, but the idea is when you get hit by them, you just wait it out. Still 9% on switching back and forth might be appealing, especially since it's only single hits, rather than 2-5.

Don't forget either that the PP is nerfed to 10 (16). So long as the player is keeping an eye on the opponent's PP, they can stay in after the 16th use, to avoid the PP glitch. (The PP glitch is when a Wrapping move is forced to be used even at 0 PP, so it loops back to 63).

Now, this is a lot more balanced, but it also works a lot better with just how the metagame is. Paralysis isn't necessarily all over the place, missing moves (common at 70%) really bites with how buffed everything is, and the general defenses of Pokemon is much higher.

I disagree with dropping them to 55% though. That makes them barely useable.

About OHKO moves, they are luck-based and zany, and I'm sure I'll be extremely irritated about them at some points myself, but 20% is a nicer balance for them than 30%. Most 1v1 situations take about 3-4 turns, depending on the Pokemon, and OHKO moves hit once on an average of 5. They're a bit behind on average, and on top, if the user doesn't hit with them, they lost a whole Pokemon that did 0 in battle. Even if they do get the hit later on, they'll have barely gone 1 for 1.

OHKOs aren't as devastating either, at least compared to RBY. In RBY, if a Tauros or Chansey eats Fissure, that team is severely crippled. Without the game revolving around a couple of Pokemon, and rather the whole team is all good, losing a single Pokemon doesn't mean it's gg.

These are all just my opinions, with some theorycrafting, but I'm for keeping them. If that flops, we could make Horn Drill and Fissure just absurdly powerful, say 200 power, 50% accuracy, or something like that.

[Isa]

I mean, I am fine with nerfing Wrap moves to 55% just because I know that nobody will use them >_> My hatred for Wrap mechanics is very strong. If we want it to actually be a move for people to use (god forbid) then 70% is tolerable.

I still hate the mechanic, and wouldn't mind as much if we just replaced it with a Volt Switch variant.

[Agent Syrup]

I feel like conversion and disable lack viable. Do you guys think they would be better with +1 priority? And if so, would you be willing to implement it?

[Isa]

I highly doubt Conversion would get used either way. It's mostly legacy.

Disable, I'm kind of eh about. I think it'd be perfectly viable, guaranteed, if it featured Gen 5 mechanics (Substitute + Disable is a good combo). Now, it's more of a "Use Disable, switch in the appropriate Pokémon that can make use of a Thunderbolt-less Chansey" thing. It's...usable, I'd say?

Priority won't really fix the inherent issues with these moves.

[WaterWizard]

Disable has already shown to be potent in RBYPlus in conjunction with other tactics like parafusion. I think it is a great move in general.

Conversion is more of a legacy as Isa says but we could perhaps distribute it to more pokémon. Let's think about it.

[Agent Syrup]

The reason I suggested +1 priority.... well with disable having a pokemon lose a move for a few turns is kind of good but generally won't be worth the turn, unless the oppoent chooses the move that was disabled in that turn. That way there is a chance disable will compensate for itself, but in order to do that it would require that the Pokemon is faster or has priority. Conversion is similar, in which I imagine the main point of the move is to become any of the special types (or poison) in order to wall your opponent with resistance to his or her STAB. Priority will help Porygon take less damage against a faster opponent and make the move more justifiable.

[WaterWizard]

I definitely like the priority and think it would be a good addition to the moves. I also think the distribution of Conversion could be extended to another group.

[Crystal_]

Could the RBYPlus mod be outdated for the current PO version? Cause in my server my mod doesn't work properly (shows "Pound" for incompatible moves such as Exeggutor's Softbolied) and although it shows things correctly in the battle screen (shows Sky Attack has 180 power, shows Egg Bomb is fire-type) moves still work like in standard RBY when they are used.

I will try to figure out myself what are the issue(s) but maybe you guys that are more familiar with the rbyplus mod can help me or just upload the correct mod if you know what the issue is and can fix it.

[Isa]

Pound has move ID 1 and is the standard move that appears for that reason when a move does not exist. I don't know if the file structure has changed or if you use an outdated version, and I haven't actually updated the Plus files since August, I believe, so eh.

[Crystal_]

I did the same thing with the plus mod and with my rby 251 mod; however, the latter worked well (isa can confirm), but the former did not. That's the error I got everytime, I guess it may have to do with the changes in moves/stats or something:

(21:29:24) Your team is invalid, you can't challenge except for Challenge Cup! Try giving moves to your pokemon.