The Official Tier Thread

[t3h Icy]

Tier discussion belongs here. Promotion/Demotion of specific Pokemon is what we're aiming for now. Reorganization is not desired, as we finalized our format during our early summer frenzy.

Hopefully we can keep all discussion in this topic, rather than needing a sub-board for it. =P

Here's our current tiers from where we left off (thanks go out to Zilch).

A (+) marker after an entry indicates that it may be outclassed in its tier due to a lack of (effective) uniqueness.

Uber

Mew
Mewtwo

OverUsed

Alakazam
Articuno
Chansey
Exeggutor
Gengar
Golem
Jolteon
Jynx
Lapras
Persian
Rhydon
Slowbro
Snorlax
Starmie
Tauros
Zapdos

BorderLine

Clefable
Cloyster
Dodrio
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Gyarados
Haunter
Hypno
Kadabra
Kangaskhan
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Nidoking
Nidoqueen (+)
Raichu
Tentacruel
Venusaur
Victreebel

UnderUsed

Arcanine (+)
Blastoise
Charizard
Dewgong
Electabuzz
Golduck
Graveler
Kabutops
Kingler
Ninetales (+)
Pinsir
Poliwhirl (+)
Poliwrath
Porygon
Raticate
Sandslash
Tangela
Vaporeon
Venomoth

NeverUsed

Aerodactyl
Arbok
Beedrill
Butterfree
Ditto
Electrode
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Golbat
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Lickitung
Machamp
Magmar
Magneton
Marowak
Muk
Omastar
Onix
Parasect
Pidgeot
Primeape
Rapidash
Scyther
Seadra
Seaking
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff
(All NFEs not previously listed)

~

Note that these tiers are accurate within a "standard" set of rules. The rules for "standard" online battle are as follows:

-All 6 Pokemon must be different (Species Clause)
-Sleep, Freeze and Self-KO Clauses
-Apply PP Ups
-Evasion moves (Double Team, Minimize) are banned (Evasion Clause)
-OHKO moves (Horn Drill, Fissure, Guillotine) are banned
-Wrap moves (Wrap, Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin) are banned

Outside of this ruleset, tiers can look different.

~

[WaterWizard]

Just reestablishing that the above tier list is based on an all-tiers-are-competitive model.

[Supreme Dirt]

So not usage based? Then why the hell are we using Smogon's usage names?

Uber

~

A

~

B

~

C

~

D
~
(All NFEs not previously listed)

EDIT:
Sorry, this cluttered the thread so I reduced it.

[Zilch]

Hate to be the one to have to say this, but where'd Flareon go? She seems to have disappeared from the tier lists. I believe she was NU last we spoke of her.

[Nerd]

Yay I love tier arguments!
OK, here are the options:

- Smogon tiers - screw our changes and just use the 'established' ones. I'm against this - changes in the OU tier are irrelevant, and there's no reason not to have NU. IMO UU still needs a bit of work, but so does Smogon's.

- Usage Based: Just because something is/isn't OU doesn't mean you can't use it, plus we don't have enough reliable data to determine if Jolteon/whatever is used too much to be BL. This is dumb if it is the only way we tier; Kingler is usable in OU, but not all all overpowered in BL.

- Competetive: Make a bunch of competetive metagames, tiers are for banned pokemon in each tier. Ubers go in the first tier, pokemon that overcentralize B go in A, pokemon that overcentralize C go in B, and so on. Usage is taken into consideration, but not the sole determinant of tier placements.

Well IMO the last one is the most logical choice. I agree we should change the tier names as well; Ubers is fine, but OU = A, BL = B, UU = C, NU = D, and anything left = E (unlikely that we can make another metagame below; it'll probably be too unbalanced).

So, IMO, we should create a B tier. Obviously, there's no point testing Tauros, Chansey, etc. but for Jolteon, Articuno, and possible the lesser OUs like Rhydon, trials should be conducted with them allowed to see if they centralize. Anything that's too good is removed and put in the A tier (regardless of how they fare in 'OU'), the most common pokemon stay in the B tier, and everything else goes to be tested in C. Again, the most overpowered move up to B, the most frequent stay in C, and everything else moves to the next tier; there may be more than five tiers once the process is complete.

Of course, this requires lots of people to be done, so unless RBY suddenly gets more popular, just do whatever you want with the tiers.


Oh, and by the way, since you're probably just going to keep the current tiers, I suggest you move Ninetales up; she pwns a bit too much in NU.

[Crystal_]

I am not very interested in the tiers, because now I am only focusing in RBY OU.
Well, the most important thing for me now is not how we make the tiers (I don't want one disscusion like the other), is that the people that are interested in playing lower tiers come to an agreement.

[t3h Icy]

I split the posts about Crystal's tiering into another thread. Use this topic for discussion of the tiers themselves and not forming new battle styles please.

[Zilch]

I've been wondering about Pinsir. He seems very capable of holding his own in the UU metagame, especially considering his Attack (999 after two Swords Dances) and Speed (268, pretty good for UU) and his sheer destructive power with Hyper Beam, not to mention he isn't plagued with weaknesses like Scyther. True, 208 special is bad, but consider that a 999 power Hyper Beam is a guaranteed OHKO on Vaporeon and everything else not named "Graveler", and for him, Pinsir has Submission.

Does he dominate NU? I haven't used him much there, so I can't really say.

[WaterWizard]

We haven't used him in NU or UU. We'll have to do some testing, Zilch!

[Zilch]

Alright, Pinsir's been bumped up to UU. Get your Gastlys (Gastlies?) and Charizards ready!

EDIT: Sandslash has been demoted to UU.

[posthuman]

Aww Sandslash.

[subsmoke]

yeah pinsir is good enough for uu. why sandslash to uu though?

[Zilch]

He's just too difficult to set up in BL with all the fast waters around, Gyarados in particular, and Dragonite also handles him easily with Blizzard, as does Victreesaur with Razor Leaf. Even in UU I can imagine he'd have some trouble.

[WaterWizard]

Icy, Zilch, Brookman, and I discussed Sandslash for about 30 minutes in the RBY server last night. We observed a few things:

Sandslash is NEVER used in BL. He cannot switch in on anything except Raichu's Thunderbolt. Otherwise, he can only come in after a team KO, and only against Kangy, Dodrio, and Dugtrio. He has to take a turn to set up before he can do anything at all.

He is walled by Gyarados, Dragonite, and Venusaur, who all either resist or are immune to his STAB attack. Cloyster can also switch in on the SD turn and send him packing for fear of Blizzard.

Furthermore, he is somewhat outclassed by Dugtrio and Nidoking.

After determining that he is unusable in BL, we began discussing his use in UU.

Sandslash is completely walled by Tangela, and scared of Poliwrath and Vaporeon. We think these three presences in UU will keep him in check. Charizard can also switch in and 2hko with Fireblast, with a 30% chance to burn Sandy and make him useless.

We'll try him in UU and see if he overcentralizes. I am fairly confident he will not do such.

[subsmoke]

yeah that's pretty true I guess. and another good thing about it is you have a counter for electabuzz in UU besides graveler or tangela.

[Crystal_]

Sandslash is actually more useful in OU than in BL imo, as long as Jolti is not BL.

[t3h Icy]

There's a bunch of Pokemon like that, namely Kingler.

[Crystal_]

Imo (knowing that this is died):

- Articuno, Rhydon => BL
- Hypno, [Cloyster], [Kangaskhan] => OU
- Arcanine, Ninetales, (Poliwhirl: the first thing is to decide if our UU acts also as a ban tier like BL) => NU

[]= idk

Everything else is fine where they are, at least so far.

[t3h Icy]

It's not dead, it's done.

Also Kangaskhan is definitely not OU, lol, and Rhydon is just slightly worse than Golem (in most general cases), and he's definitely not BL.

[Crystal_]

Is it possible to add something to the rby server, so that it registers the pokes that have been used in a battle; and then it gets the number of times a poke is used? I think Smogon did sth like this but idk if they did it in NB

[posthuman]

let's not get into this tier madness again

[t3h Icy]

The tiers are fine. Having totals of how many times each Pokemon is used wouldn't change anything.

[Zilch]

Honestly, I think the only reason these tiers should be talked about again is if there is any possibility of NU-UU movement, but even there I think we're just about set unless someone finds something game-breaking.

[WaterWizard]

I agree with Zilch.

NU-UU movement is the only unknown right now.
Breakthrough strategies might warrant movement elsewhere.

If anyone wants to move something, submit a lengthy and well rounded argument.

[Zilch]

Hmm... with all this interest in Aerodactyl, is he just situationally useful/luck dependant, or is he really too good to be NU?

[t3h Icy]

NU has more Rocks/Electrics which are major problems, and most of the standard Pokemon aren't completely fragile Physically. It's also trickier to setup with Sky Attack, as most Pokemon in NU have a way to hit heavily.

That said, I haven't actually tried Aerodactyl in NU much. Don't forget though that for Aerodactyl to be useful (in OU or NU), you need to predict well and while it could give you extra benefits you wouldn't have gained from others, you have to consistently predict correctly, or else it's just a waste of a slot.

Aerodactyl charging Sky Attack vs Pidgeot, Arbok, Fearow, Lickitung and Fires (barring Burns) should all work.

[Zilch]

True. Omastar completely walls Aerodactyl, and Electrode/Magneton would prove extremely hazardous.

With that being said, he's still good to use against Fearow (he's the only Pokemon you mentioned that's actively used in NU nowadays), and the annoying grass types (especially Parasect). Fire types, especially Flareon with that strong Fire Blast, are always a gamble to use him against.

I'm more willing to mark him under "situationally useful", since as you said, it takes great prediction skills to use him well. Any beginner who takes their first look at Aero and can only say OMG HES SO FAST AND STRONG would get blown out of the water.

[t3h Icy]

Well all Pokemon are situationally useful, just to different degrees. Dodrio has a lot of potential when used properly and at maximum useful, Dodrio is definitely OU, but you're basing Tiers on players, rather than the natural stats of a Pokemon.

Aerodactyl isn't great in OU, compared to Tauros, Chansey, etc since Aerodactyl requires that the player has better prediction than the opponent, only that the reward of that can be amazing.

OU is mainly filled with low-risk, high-reward Pokemon such as Tauros, but there are some that have some extra risk, but perhaps even higher rewards, such as Zapdos and Persian. Ultimately for perfect play, you'd want everything that gives the highest rewards, but since equally matched opponents means predicting nearly even 60% is difficult, the high risks aren't worth it. Luck also plays a factor in risk/reward, and Pokemon such as Electrode using Explosion do this a lot more naturally.

To sum up, Aerodactyl belongs in NU in my opinion.

[WaterWizard]

IMO, he stays where he's at for now, until someone shows he can consistently hold his own in UU. I think NU with occasional appearances in OU is fitting.

[Crystal_]

I don't mind much about the tiers now, i've definitely given up. Both BL and UU are pretty balanced and healthy, so it's fine.