The Official Tier Thread

[garrinred]

**glances at tier list**

**sees Articuno in OU tier**

**rolls eyes and walks away**

[Zilch]

Articuno's OU mainly because he's just too good for BL. Back when him and Jolteon were there, every team had them, and every match boiled down to using them more effectively than your opponent. Besides, he's pretty good in OU if you can find the right time to use him.

[t3h Icy]

Gengar with Articuno work really well together in switching around, such as vs Tauros and Snorlax.

[Crystal_]

Gengar + Articuno < Lapras + Golem/Rhydon though.

[WaterWizard]

I disagree. Gengar + Articuno results in a net damage loss of 0.

Also, Garrin, you don't trust our judgment?

[Nitro]

Mar 14, 2011 4:37:32 GMT -8 t3h Icy said:

Gengar with Articuno work really well together in switching around, such as vs Tauros and Snorlax.

So does Gengar and....anything. And I wouldn't say it's anything amazing. Chain switching with Gengar tends to be painfully obvious.

[Crystal_]

Gengar + Articuno drawback is the inability to damage the switches. Lapras takes 9% from Blizzard and 17% from D-E, and against Starmie / Chasney it's all about freezing or taking the risk of a Sky Attack, where odds are against Articuno. Gengar just can't damage half the metagame outside of explodiong.

Rhydon/Golem does +30% to everything and sweeps with para support, and Lapras can really only see Chanseys as asemi-solid switch, but it still takes 25% from BS with 30% chance of para. And parafusion. Or Sing.

[WaterWizard]

Poor arguing. You fail to see that the Gengar -> Articuno chain switch has just taken you from a negative situation into one where the opponent has to switch someone into a 348 stabbed Blizzard with a 10% chance to freeze. With paralysis support, this is quite formidable.

Of course Lapras shuts down Articuno, unless you Mimic Tbolt on the switch (rare but very effective). Lapras is the quintessential counter. Does everyone have Lapras? No. But that's fine, you can sponge Lapras with Chansey/Starmie/Gengar, and you've gotten the physical threat out of play. Lapras' Blizzard is a lot less potent.

Articuno has a 2HKO on Tauros, Alakazam, Eggy/Venu/Viccy, Persian, Zapdos (to name only a few), and a 1HKO on every ground pokemon.

In fact, no pokemon in a Standard OU team can switch in on Articuno except Chansey and Lapras/Starmie (again negated if she Mimics Tbolt). Jolteon won't like irrecoverably losing 45% of his health. Really, only Lapras switches in worry free. With paralysis support, if Articuno scores a CH on Chansey/Starmie on the switch, she's got a decent chance to win, or at least you can send in a sweeper while they mash that recover button.

Chansey usually beats Lapras, and with Gengar's help, it's too easy.

[Crystal_]

you can sponge Lapras with Starmie / Gengar? I don't see how.

Chansey shouldn't be beating Lapras, because Lapras should be switching out anyway.

"you've gotten the physical threat out of play"
No (i guess). The physical threat switches to Lapras/Chansey/Starmie.

Simply, my argument was that Articuno has a harder time damaging some switches than Lapras, and you are not saying otherwise, as it wouldn't be true. Obviously, Lapras doesn't beat Chansey / Starmie / Alakazam without help; it would have been Uber otherwise.
And about Mimic, I can only see it effective with the nb glitch. Without it, it's 25% each switch, and imo it's not enough.

Gengar vs Rhydon/Golem. Gengar doesn't damage many things without exploding: Chansey and Alakazam. Some others are damaged VERY slowly: Egg (providing you have NS) and Snorlax. And, if you are NS-ing you are not MD-ing, so add Rhydon/Golem to the list. Jynx, Jolteon, Zapdos, Tauros, Starmie all beat it. But, wait, you can explode! Yes we can. However, how will you be using Gengar + Articuno then?

So with Gengar you are either coming into normals or doing something offensively. Golem/Rhydon hurts everything for +30%.

Your turn =)

[WaterWizard]

lol Gengar 2HKOs Starmie and Golem without exploding; that's 1/3 of a team. But we're talking about chain switching, anyway.

Also, if you're dismissing Lapras sponges, then I can dismiss Articuno's sponge (Lapras). If Lapras can run from Chansey, then Articuno can run from Lapras.

No, Articuno does not have a harder time damaging switch-ins. She hits nearly everyone harder than Lapras. Convincingly harder. 288 vs 348.


You can't ignore the fact that Gengar -> Articuno chain switching results in no damage lost, and puts the Snorlax in a more difficult situation than it would be against Lapras/Rhydon.

Fin.

[Nitro]

Mar 15, 2011 10:18:08 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Poor arguing. You fail to see that the Gengar -> Articuno chain switch has just taken you from a negative situation into one where the opponent has to switch someone into a 348 stabbed Blizzard with a 10% chance to freeze. With paralysis support, this is quite formidable.

Of course Lapras shuts down Articuno, unless you Mimic Tbolt on the switch (rare but very effective). Lapras is the quintessential counter. Does everyone have Lapras? No. But that's fine, you can sponge Lapras with Chansey/Starmie/Gengar, and you've gotten the physical threat out of play. Lapras' Blizzard is a lot less potent.

Articuno has a 2HKO on Tauros, Alakazam, Eggy/Venu/Viccy, Persian, Zapdos (to name only a few), and a 1HKO on every ground pokemon.

In fact, no pokemon in a Standard OU team can switch in on Articuno except Chansey and Lapras/Starmie (again negated if she Mimics Tbolt). Jolteon won't like irrecoverably losing 45% of his health. Really, only Lapras switches in worry free. With paralysis support, if Articuno scores a CH on Chansey/Starmie on the switch, she's got a decent chance to win, or at least you can send in a sweeper while they mash that recover button.

Chansey usually beats Lapras, and with Gengar's help, it's too easy.

It almost sounds like you're suggesting that Articuno is hard to beat and Lapras is easy. Or that Articuno is better than Lapras. I don't think an argument is necessary to refute that cause it's just not true.

In regards to chain switching with Gengar, I'd much rather take 20% on the switch from an EQ with Lapras than take 0% on the switch with Articuno. This is because Lapras is way better than Articuno in general.

I don't really think golem/rhydon are better for chain switching than Gengar, though I do think they're better pokemon and that chain switching is kinda for noobs. With everyone fearing counter on everything it's not like you can bank on your gengar to switch in cleanly.

[WaterWizard]

Well I wasn't trying to communicate that (and don't really see how that was inferred).

Just so we're clear, a stabbed Blizzard from anyone is powerful stuff.

I am merely stressing that it is most powerful (by a significant margin) from Articuno.


And for chain switching, Articuno does it better.

That doesn't make Articuno an overall better pokemon. Just better in certain situations. Having a ground immunity is quite useful.

If my contentions weren't clear before, hopefully this makes them so.

[garrinred]

Mar 14, 2011 12:32:27 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Also, Garrin, you don't trust our judgment?

OU = "Overused" = Used a lot. (In the "standard" non-ubers metagame.)
BL = "Borderline" = Too good for the UU metagame, but not used a lot in the OU metagame.

Articuno = Too good for the UU metagame, but not used a lot in the OU metagame. I do question how much Articuno overcentralizes BL(more than an OU Tauros? Really?). Mostly though, Articuno simply isn't overused. He's rarely used at all in the OU metagame.

[WaterWizard]

You'll have to read back through the tier threads for the full arguments.

Articuno is powerful enough for OU, and used fairly often. She's used more often than Persian/Slowbro, and about as often as Zapdos/Jolteon.

She definitely belongs there, imo.

I suggest you read some threads from here.

[Crystal_]

Artciuno doesn't overcentralize the BL meta at all. Cloyster 100% stops and Vap as well (bar freeze). And stuff like Kanga or Nidoking won't really mind much using Rock Slide. All in all, it's pretty good. Question is: Is Articuno used enough in OU not to be placed in BL? Idk.

"I don't really think golem/rhydon are better for chain switching than Gengar, though I do think they're better pokemon and that chain switching is kinda for noobs."
Chain switching covers more aspects of prediction than you'll think imo, mainly because chain switching is not a well suited name for it imo. It's going to Rhydon as it Slams and going to Lapras as it Blizzards. But it's also going to Golem as he slams and staying in as it slams again, going to Lapras if it blizzards first turn, going to egg if it eqs etc. It's all related to defensive prediction imo. Defensive prediction so as to be in a position ready to threaten your opponent from the opposite position, taking the less damage the better in the change-position process.

[Nitro]

Is Articuno even actually better than Cloyster at all? Cloyster's the better anti physical with an explosion to actually threaten the hard walls that Articuno would run into (Starmie, Lapras, Chansey). The only advantage articuno has is needing one less shot to KO Lax/Tauros. The speed gap means nothing as far as RBY is concerned since anything between the speeds 238 and 278 really don't matter (you're either faster or slower than everything that will possibly be used).

I don't see anyone using Articuno except for WW in friendly games. I doubt anyone is using Articuno in tournament play (requirements: includes people outside of 2K10). If it's actually used more than Slowbro or Persian that's a really focked metagame.

[garrinred]

I'm with Crystal on his first part, and with Nitro on his second part. I've seen an Articuno maybe once or twice in OU play. I've seen the likes of Dodrio, Jolteon, and Cloyster more often than Articuno. Idk about the theory, I'm wondering it Artciuno is actually used a lot these days, or if it ever was.

[t3h Icy]

The amount of usage of a Pokemon isn't directly related to how good something is, though there's definitely some proportionality.

[subsmoke]

Mar 12, 2011 22:54:24 GMT -8 @garrinred said:

**glances at tier list**

**sees Articuno in OU tier**

**rolls eyes and walks away**

Pretty much what zilch said, it's too tough for bl. It does major damage to almost everything and it barely has any counters. The only pokemon that can switch in are cloyster and tentacruel. Moltres beats it 1 on 1 but can't switch in and raichu is no counter since it takes half its health on the switch.

[subsmoke]

Zilch and Crystal, what does lapras threaten that articuno doesn't besides starmie, slowbro and other lapras? Slowbro and lapras aint all that common and starmie usually wins since it goes first and can recover. All lapras really has over articuno is tbolt and a smaller rock weakness.

[WaterWizard]

Nitro... Articuno's 348 special is so much higher than Cloyster/Lapras. It allows her to both hit harder and take special hits much better than the other two. She is also immune to ground (and resists Grass, for what that's worth).

Also, Articuno outspeeds Nidoking, making it impossible for him to even hit her unless he comes in fresh. He still loses. Kanga cannot switch in as he is also 2hkod. He can come in fresh though.

I have seen three other with Articuno in the last month alone.

Stats are more important than usage.

The tiers we have set up work group all the pokemon with similar stats/ability.

We know they work. Let's not get into that again...

[posthuman]

Sub, Lapras has more than Blizzard and TBolt. Body Slam makes her a mixed sweeper and allows her to para, and Confuse Ray (especially on switch-ins) gives her a chance to avoid a lot of damage that's thrown her way. She can also Sing, which throws a lot of people off guard. Lapras is more unpredictable than Articuno, as she has a more versatile moveset.

Also, while Lapras vs. the three waters you mentioned don't give huge benefits to Lapras over Articuno, Lapras at least can fight them. Articuno is walled by all three, especially Lapras. Lapras may not be a great pokemon vs. Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie, etc., but she is never walled by anything.

Note that I still think Articuno deserves to be in the OU tier.

[GGFan]

Articuno has one distinct advantage over Lapras when it comes to fighting Chansey and Starmie: Sky Attack. With a crit, the former will always OHKO, while the latter OHKOs on average.

Confuse Ray and Body Slam are absolute musts for Lapras to have a legitimate chance against Chansey, but this means that you can't run Rest (you COULD ditch Thunderbolt I guess).

[t3h Icy]

That doesn't really work. During the charge or from beforehand, Articuno will end up Paralyzed, and Chansey can follow up with Thunderbolt, or better yet, switch to Golem/Rhydon and Rock Slide the following turn (or force a switch).

Articuno's CH rate is also only ~17% and I don't really see why Chansey would stay in.

So factoring in CH chance, likely avoiding Full Paralysis, and even hitting, your chance per Sky Attack drops to about 11.2%. I'd go for a Freeze if I could instead.

[GGFan]

^The idea is that Starmie and Chansey are two of Articuno's biggest counters, so you use it when they switch in (they have to be paralyzed).

[t3h Icy]

It's not really favorable even then, again because the CH chance isn't great. Aerodactyl at least has a pretty solid 1/4 chance and can follow up with Hyper Beam afterward.

If you don't get the OHKO and they don't FP, your Articuno takes Paralysis or a heavy hit, which puts in dents.

It's definitely the best option for Articuno vs Chansey/Starmie though, but I'd rather avoid it altogether.

[WaterWizard]

if you have an unparalyzed Articuno, and she uses Sky Attack on the Chansey/Starmie switch, the only poke that can switch in is Jolteon/Zapdos/Slowbro. Otherwise you just sustained a 140 STAB attack from 268... That's stronger than Rhydon's Earthquake... Enjoy that...

On average, without a crit, Articuno's Sky Attack does 85% to Eggy, 45% to Tauros, 38% to Snorlax/Lapras, 75% to Alakazam, 51% to Starmie, 58% to Chansey...

Articuno is different from Cloyster/Lapras. Ground immunity and extra special attack/defense. None of those three ice pokemon can take Chansey on average. Not Lapras, not Cloyster, not Articuno. At least Articuno isn't totally walled by Counter Chansey, like the others.

It just comes down to what you need on your team. Why debate that?

[KiNGskruffi]

Mar 16, 2011 16:40:14 GMT -8 posthuman said:

Sub, Lapras has more than Blizzard and TBolt. Body Slam makes her a mixed sweeper..

Well you can play Articuno as a mixed sweeper, too, can't you? With DE and HB.

[Crystal_]

"Confuse Ray and Body Slam are absolute musts for Lapras to have a legitimate chance against Chansey, but this means that you can't run Rest (you COULD ditch Thunderbolt I guess)."

Tbolt should be there for Lapras and Starmies. Lapras is Blizzard/Tbolt/BSlam + 1 of Sing, Confuse Ray and Rest, the laters much more effective (instead of acually saying "only") with some para support. Lapras shouldn't really stay into Chansey to take unnecessary damage or a TW imo. Lapras just Body Slams in the switch if you predict to try to para. Then, you usually go to Alakazam/Chansey to set up a physical switch with TW/spc falls or you just go directly to Snorlax (Snorlax 2HKO's with BSlam after Lapras' BSLam).

"Articuno has one distinct advantage over Lapras when it comes to fighting Chansey and Starmie: Sky Attack. With a crit, the former will always OHKO, while the latter OHKOs on average."
Yes, Articuno should be using that. Alongside Blizzard, HBeam and Mimic(with nb glitch) /D-Edge imo. Still, each SA that doesn't CH is a TW/Tbolt you take. Plus, Golem/Rhydon can try to outpredict you... Anyway, Articuno's main problem is imo that does very little damage to Lapras.

"None of those three ice pokemon can take Chansey on average. Not Lapras, not Cloyster, not Articuno"
But Lapras can paralyze it.

Actually, what I think that makes the bigger difference is the Articuno vs Lapras macthup, as Articuno is probably as useful as Lapras against the rest of the meta overall.

Perhaps, also, another problem is that Artcuno needs to take the risk of eating a TW if he wants to do something to the waters/chansey. Both Lapras and Articuno hate the para and see their usefulness really lowered with it, but Lapras can BSlam Chansey and Tbolt Starmie and switch out, or even surprise them with Sing. Artcuno actually needs SA for them, which almost involves taking the TW (or a +33% Tbolt if you are already para) and involves a much more risky
prediction.

Articuno, however, is pretty good. But the real problem imo, is that Lapras is slightly better. Think of Kanga vs Tauros, Kanga is pretty good, and it would have been a standard easily if there were not Turos. However, you don't use it. Both Lapras and Articuno have the same role/use or should have for that matter: coming into physicals (especially good with "chain prediction") and try to annoy specials to perhaps ease the physical sweepers job at killing them.

And, if you are considering Cloyster as good as Lapras, then that's a drawback for Articuno, vs Lapras.

[garrinred]

Here's my suggestion: If there's a reasonable way to accomplish this, let's count the number of times a battle is won in the current OU tourney with Articuno on the team. Doesn't even have to be a match, a battle. But the battle does have to be won. This won't directly say anything about Articuno's stats or usability, but it could provide a bit of objective insight about Articuno's actual usage(or lack thereof).