The Official Tier Thread

[WaterWizard]

Alright Garrin. You count your Articuno sightings. Also count Persian, Slowbro, and Zapdos, eh? Jynx too...

I think we see from Crystal's post, as well as the others, that these ice pokes function mostly the same, but each have various scenarios where they work better.

I would say the Tauros/Kanga comparison isn't great, because Articuno is actually more powerful than Lapras, and Kanga is more diverse (Counter)... But yes, I ranked Lapras higher on my OU rankings. I'm under no impression that Articuno is always better. Just sometimes. Again, team building... (and paralysis support)...

I would like to mention that Articuno's Blizzard does the same damage to Chansey as Lapras' Body Slam. Just food for thought. Articuno is strong!

going to the beach now

[Nitro]

Mar 16, 2011 22:41:19 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Articuno is different from Cloyster/Lapras. Ground immunity and extra special attack/defense. None of those three ice pokemon can take Chansey on average. Not Lapras, not Cloyster, not Articuno. At least Articuno isn't totally walled by Counter Chansey, like the others.

Cloyster can explode on Chansey and Lapras can sing. That's the closest any of them come to "beating" Chansey. 348 special is cool but it's useless when it's always hitting chansey/starmie/lapras/slowbro/jynx. It's not like Lapras or Cloyster have pathetic special stats. Like I said it amounts to them needing an extra hit to kill a few things. STAB Blizzard is hitting hard no matter what your special is. I guess Articuno is better for fighting Alakazam? Idk.

Either way you look at it we can make lots of things look OU in theory with enough par support and assuming a critical hit spree. Articuno appears to me to be directly inferior to more than 1 pokemon.

EDIT: I wanted to challenge the point that Articuno's extra special makes it better defensively. I suspected Lapras could make up the difference with the extra HP, and it turns out it's true. Articuno and Lapras take virtually identical percentage damage from special attacks. Lapras also takes physical hits BETTER. So Lapras is better defensively than Articuno. Articuno is completely outclassed besides a relatively meaningless (for the meta's purposes) speed difference and 60 extra special on Blizzard attacks.

Articuno is also BARELY anti-physical in general. The definition of anti physical to me is being able to survive a Tauros bslam bslam Hbeam. Articuno on (VERY, VERY SLIGHTLY) above average damages dies to this. Lapras survives this sequence solidly, though.

Articuno vs Cloyster is a decent comparison, though:

Articuno:

-More Power
-Slightly Better Crit rate
-Faster than...Venusaur/Victreebel?
-Signficantly better at taking special hits

Cloyster:
-Significantly more anti-physical
-Explosion

[posthuman]

Ha, that's interesting that Lapras is a bit better defensively. I was unaware of that.

[GGFan]

It's not really favorable even then, again because the CH chance isn't great. Aerodactyl at least has a pretty solid 1/4 chance and can follow up with Hyper Beam afterward.

The point is that Articuno has a move that is capable of OHKOing Chansey, whereas Lapras doesn't. Furthermore, if you run Reflect and Rest on Articuno, then you can receive at least a few chances at killing Chansey (Reflect limits the amount of switch-out opportunities while Articuno is sleeping). It's not supposed to be a favorable match-up, but if it can kill Chansey, it's worth it.

If you don't get the OHKO and they don't FP, your Articuno takes Paralysis or a heavy hit, which puts in dents.

The idea of using Sky Attack when Chansey comes in is that you won't have anything better to do; however, Sky Attack is always better than relying on Ice Beam and/or Blizzard. Even if it doesn't CH, Chansey still takes over 400 damage on average.

Tbolt should be there for Lapras and Starmies. Lapras is Blizzard/Tbolt/BSlam + 1 of Sing, Confuse Ray and Rest, the laters much more effective (instead of acually saying "only") with some para support. Lapras shouldn't really stay into Chansey to take unnecessary damage or a TW imo. Lapras just Body Slams in the switch if you predict to try to para. Then, you usually go to Alakazam/Chansey to set up a physical switch with TW/spc falls or you just go directly to Snorlax (Snorlax 2HKO's with BSlam after Lapras' BSLam).

Thunderbolt isn't necessary on Lapras, just as it isn't necessary on Chansey. Starmie already kills it unless Lapras gets lucky, so you might as well at least consider alternative movesets for dealing with Pokemon that otherwise wall it completely. The purpose of Body Slam/Confuse Ray/Rest is specifically to throw off somebody who otherwise expects their Chansey to wall Lapras--which can make the difference between winning and losing. With parafusion in play, not only does Lapras have a more feasible chance of killing Chansey, it can rest off damage more easily as well.

Perhaps, also, another problem is that Artcuno needs to take the risk of eating a TW if he wants to do something to the waters/chansey. Both Lapras and Articuno hate the para and see their usefulness really lowered with it, but Lapras can BSlam Chansey and Tbolt Starmie and switch out, or even surprise them with Sing. Artcuno actually needs SA for them, which almost involves taking the TW (or a +33% Tbolt if you are already para) and involves a much more risky
prediction.

Paralysis really isn't the end of the world for Lapras: it's already slow, and its bulky enough so that it can restore its status without too much trouble. Articuno's defensive capabilities shouldn't be undermined as well, as he's just as good--if not better--on the physical side if you run Reflect.

[Crystal_]

"Thunderbolt isn't necessary on Lapras, just as it isn't necessary on Chansey"
It is. Not for Starmie, but for Lapras actually. And helps against slowbros. Especially Rest Lapras. You are definitely underrating it imo. Lapras is easily tied for the third position in a hipotetical ranking of usefulness.

"not only does Lapras have a more feasible chance of killing Chansey"
I don't really think that Lapras should be staying against Chansey imo. It's taking unnecessary damage, and you'll really need a lot of luck to defeat it with parafusion. Oh wait, maybe Chasney lacks tbolt...

"Thunderbolt isn't necessary on Lapras"
Non-tbolt lapras is wortless against Lapras and Starmie and allows Bro to set up on you.

"Paralysis really isn't the end of the world for Lapras"
You now don't outspeed Snorlax/Slowbro/Rhydon/Golem/Lapras/Egg/Chansey (the first four being REALLY important), nor faster paralyzed pokes like Alakazam. Add that you won't attack 25% of the times. Parafusion now becomes 50% rather than 62,5%, etc. Paralysis easily takes away around 40% of Lapras/Articuno usefulness and around 35% of Cloy imo.

"Articuno's defensive capabilities shouldn't be undermined as well, as he's just as good--if not better--on the physical side if you run Reflect. "
Questionable imo. You 2HKO Tauros with Articuno, but doesn't Tauros switch out unless it can kill Articuno/Lapras anyway? Reflect isn't useful imo. You are going to use it as your opponent switches out, and, if you really need the estra defense, Tauros outspeeds you, though you can still surprise a slower Snorlax trying to HBeam maybe. And Reflect doesn't prevent Articuno from being 2HKO'd by RSlides, so you can't rest effectively.
In addition, Lapras takes 5% less from physical hits than Articuno, and still learns Reflect if anyone wants it for whatever reason. Moreover, since the ice-type is usually paired with Rhydon/Gengar + Exeggutor for physical defensive resistances, i'd rather resist Blizzard/Surf than EQ imo.

[samthedigital]

GGFan can be pronounced as BubbleBeam.

I don't really wanna keep my original post here anymore. >_>;;

[Crystal_]

oh lol sorry =/ edited.

[garrinred]

Mar 17, 2011 5:52:42 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Alright Garrin. You count your Articuno sightings. Also count Persian, Slowbro, and Zapdos, eh? Jynx too...

Deal.

I've actually seen Persian, Slowbro, and Zapdos more than once each. They're uncommon compared to Tauros and Chansey perhaps, but at least they're present more than once in a blue moon. Slowbro likes to kick my butt often, and I like to kick Zapdos's butt often. Persian and I are neutral towards each other, and win about 50/50 when we play.

Jynx isn't even an issue, as I've been seeing her all the time in the past few months.

[Nerd]

You realize this Articuno discussion is completely pointless, right? It's already been determined that Articuno is overpowered in BL, so all that you're arguing about is whether or not Articuno should have a (+) beside its name under the OU tier.

BTW, I've seen more Articunos than Persians and possibly Rhydons.

[garrinred]

Absolutely, Nerd. You're entirely right.

What does the (+) mean?

And I've seen plenty more Persians and Rhydons, personally.

[t3h Icy]

(+) is a mark for anything that is too powerful in the next tier down, but is outclassed in their current tier.

[garrinred]

Oh, there's a (+) sign? In that case, I have no problem with OU Articuno with a little (+).

I was under the impression that BL was a (+) tier in itself. Ah well.

[WaterWizard]

Thank you, nerd

And Articuno doesn't get a (+) sign, because she isn't completely outclassed by someone. As in, she's not just a weaker version of something else. She's unique. Articuno has the stats and the following to be OU, and we determined that a while ago.

Garrin, remember, you haven't even used her! lol... Try her out and see what she can do for you.

In other news, I just saw the movie "Limitless." pretty good I guess.

[garrinred]

I have too used her!! ..........in the no-switch metagame.

Fine, I'll try her out! But you have to help me rework my team, since you are still training me and all. :-P

[Crystal_]

Cloyster is OU imo. And maybe Vict/Venu. Based on usage.

[WaterWizard]

Hypno, Kangaskhan, and Dugtrio are used more often. They're all just guest-star BLs.

[t3h Icy]

May 11, 2011 3:39:48 GMT -8 Crystal_ said:

Cloyster is OU imo. And maybe Vict/Venu. Based on usage.

Wrap is still banned, fyi. =P

[Zilch]

I've been thinking about Fearow recently, and I'm not certain that he doesn't deserve to be UU. If we compare him with the other resident UU Normal type, Raticate, he's pretty much got more Speed/Attack and a source of alternative STAB in Drill Peck, but he passes up Super Fang, Body Slam and Blizzard/Bubblebeam, meaning he's pretty much walled by Graveler and Kabutops.

Still, consider these damage calculations:

Drill Peck
Venomoth: 65-76%
Poliwrath: 44-52%
Tangela: 45-53%
Pinsir: 49-58%

Double-Edge
Electabuzz: 43-50%
Golduck: 33-38%
Raticate: 44-52%
Charizard: 33-39%
Vaporeon: 30-35%
Sandslash: 27-32%
Kingler: 30-35%

Hyper Beam
Electabuzz: 64-75%
Golduck: 49-57%
Raticate: 66-77%
Charizard: 49-58%
Vaporeon: 45-52%
Sandslash: 42-47%
Kingler: 44-52%
Graveler: 22-26%

So he hits everything that's not made of rock pretty hard, and since he outspeeds all the Amnesia users, he can also work like Raticate in picking them off if they're weak or if you switch into Rest, not to mention he's pretty lethal against Poliwrath.

As far as taking Thunderbolt, Electabuzz can't OHKO him without a critical (it does 76-89%), meaning if Fearow is full health he can still take out a weakened Buzz with Hyper Beam. Electabuzz still outspeeds him, mind you, and he ties with Charizard, so consider putting Agility as your fourth over something gimmicky like Mirror Move.

Anyway, does Fearow merit a closer look for moving up into UU, or does he struggle enough with the NU game to stay down there?

[WaterWizard]

I'm fine with that. Fearow has enough usefulness and usage to be UU.

Tangela, Venomoth, Poliwrath, and Pinsir are all very common and the presence of Fearow really changes things around. Fearow can get into play easily, and does a great job of forcing switches.

Ivysaur, Vileplume, and Machamp are happy with that promotion, too... lol

[Zilch]

Especially Machamp. Now all he has to fear is Abra for super-effective STAB!

[WaterWizard]

mhm Pidgeot and Doduo don't exactly cut it.

[Crystal_]

Don't really think Fearrow is UU. Never seen it there. Though maybe with Sandslash moved down, people use less graveler and it becomes better, but idk; to many Blizzard waters out there.

[t3h Icy]

That's why you don't use him in fresh 1v1s. =P

If Fearow goes to UU, what would that change in NU?

[WaterWizard]

We'll have to play NU some this week without Fearow and see how balanced it is. Technically UU takes priority, but if there isn't enough viability for Fearow there, we could leave him NU and just let him guest star in UU so he can play both tiers (like Gastly).

Machamp only has four move slots, so a number of pokemon can work if he's missing the right move (EQ or RockSlide)... Pidgeot, Gastly, Scyther, Aerodactyl, Omastar, Muk, Weezing, Magneton are all mentionable, and Electrode, Parasect, Vileplume, and Ivsaur can help out. Having Omastar and Aerodactyl limits the functionality of Machamp's HB, and Hitmonlee/Wigglytuff can also Counter-Catch it. Abra and Drowzee offer STAB Psychic.

[Crystal_]

There is no need to move up Fearow imo. BTW, if we take wrap into account , then Arbok will probably be UU.

[Dre]

I know this is a huge bump, but I thought it would be better than making a new thread.

Anyway, I was thinking, should tiers really be based on just usage? To me, a pokemon like Golem, who is used a lot, but probably isn't op in uu should be uu. Unless I'm mistaken, he doesn't really centralise uu, he's just a better version of graveler. He still loses to a lot of uu standards, so it's not as if he's like a zam or tauros and can beat pretty much every uu 1v1. I don't see how a pokemon who gets ohko'd by a fair few pokemon (even nu pokes) who outspeed him is too op for uu.

I think the way it should work is work from the bottom up.

What I mean is you start with a theoretical mg that has every poke in it. What happens is that a bunch of pokemon centralise the mg around themselves, and a bunch of other pokes become completely unviable. These unviable ones become the nu tier, and the rest of the pokes move up and become the uu tier. Then the pokes that centralise uu and make everything else unviable then move up to ou.

That way, the pokes who are usable in ou, and get used a lot, but aren't op in uu can still be played in uu.

[garrinred]

dre, that's.....fascinating. That is a really interesting model.

[t3h Icy]

I disagree, I think Golem would be extremely common and overpowered in UU. Graveler is used on almost every team and he is always being useful.

I don't think there are any OU Pokemon that would be acceptable in UU; they're all superb in one thing or another.

Cool idea though.

[DragonAura]

That raises a legitimate question though. Are any OU acceptable in UU? How about any OU or BL in NU? There might not be, I'm just posing the question.

I'll go out on a limb here and say Mew/Mewtwo shouldn't be allowed in lower tiers...

[Lutra]

Feb 23, 2012 5:03:51 GMT -8 Dre said:

I

What I mean is you start with a theoretical mg that has every poke in it. What happens is that a bunch of pokemon centralise the mg around themselves, and a bunch of other pokes become completely unviable. These unviable ones become the nu uu tier, and the rest of the pokes move up and become the uu ou tier. Then the pokes that centralise uu ou and make everything else unviable then move up to ou ubers.

That way, the pokes who are usable in ou ubers , and get used a lot, but aren't op in uu ou can still be played in uu ou.

The method you describe appears to be essentially the same as the current.

If you truly started from the bottom, and moved up everything overpowered, you'd probably end up with a tier that bans everything zubat and stronger, playing with caterpie, weedle etc. (assuming you wanted everything to be used) It wouldn't end up too much different to if you started at the top to be honest, but pokemon may fall into one or two tiers lower, like what you want.

Alternatively, you could just alter the banning method, i.e. be more harsh with banning, or set a higher usage cut-off for the top to bottom method to get out all the nasty pokemon you don't want. The former would result in probably less tiers than the latter.