Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 16, 2012 19:50:48 GMT -8
I thought it'd be cool to get some NU discussion going. Discuss the main threats, the standard team/teams, standard sets tec.
I don't know much about the meta, but machamp seems like it'd be a good pokemon, because it's bulky and can 2hko a good portion of the meta. I don't think it can be ohko'd without a crit either, as I think it takes around 80% from Abra's psychic, but can ohko back with hyper beam or can 2hko pretty much any other move it has, so abra can't switch in if champ is at full health, especially if it's paralyzed.
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 17, 2012 17:33:13 GMT -8
Machamp is good in NU, but he's a bit slow. He's terrific for picking off weak Pokemon, but he'll too often take a hit in edgewise, and Submission really isn't that great a move. He can 2HKO and 3HKO just about everything here, as well as 1HKO some of the NFEs with Hyper Beam, or Earthquake in Gastly's case. You can also carry Fire Blast to try and surprise Bugs and Grasses, especially Parasect. He's more usable than Hitmonlee, though, because his versatility and stamina trump Hitmonlee's speed and Hi Jump Kick in my opinion. Also, Alakazam can't OHKO Machamp without a critical, so Abra certainly can't.
NU is actually a surprisingly deep game that plays a bit like a mini-BL, with a more offensively based metagame rather than the predictionfests in UU or mixed strategy of OU. There are some NFEs who can help out (Abra, Gastly, Staryu, Ivysaur, Exeggcute, and even Drowzee or Slowpoke if you can get them going) in addition to the fully evolved stuff, so there's certainly some variety. I wish more people would try it out!
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 17, 2012 17:37:09 GMT -8
NU is one of the most enjoyable metas I know. Zilch and I had a great set last year.
Staryu is absolutely superb, Omastar is underused, Rhyhorn is pretty important, Fearow cleans like nothing else once Rocks are gone, Scyther would have been fun had it not been for Gastly and rocks.
I'll write more later.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 17, 2012 17:40:45 GMT -8
Submission actually isn't that important though. It's only needed to 2hko omastar and probably do the same to normals. And even then, if star is damaged he can 2hko with equake.
He 2hkos pretty much everything else with bslam hbeam equake rslide.
Edit- Scyther can 2hko gastly with a boosted wing attack.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 17, 2012 17:41:23 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by brookman on Apr 17, 2012 17:57:45 GMT -8
Is Fearow NU???
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 17, 2012 18:05:02 GMT -8
Yeah. He seems like he'd be a beast too.
I don't understand why magmar used toxic in that set though.
I really like parasect as a pokemon, and I was trying to think what kind of uses it has in NU. It has good syngery with electrics who lure in rhyhorn. Parasect can switch in with it's 1/4 resistance to eq, and then outspeeds rhyhorn for the spore, or can go for a boosting move if it anticipates the switch out to a parad pokemon.
That's all I could think of, apart from using slash on amensia slowpoke, but I'm not sure if that's even that common.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 17, 2012 18:06:15 GMT -8
lolyes
There's so many viable Pokémon in NU as well, which is slightly surprising but also fun. Dragonair, Rapidash, Ivysaur, Exeggcute, Abra, Staryu, Magmar, Gastly, Electrode...and that's just things you might see as leads.
Magmar didn't use Toxic, Electrode did. It's for the predicted Rhyhorn switch - Rhyhorn usually doesn't catch status, so better do something while you can.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 17, 2012 18:09:06 GMT -8
Weepinbell is probably better than Ivysaur. It gets stun spore and has better attack and special. I think stun spore is better for a late game sweeper than sleep powder.
Ivy's biggest draw over bell is that it outspeeds omastar, whereas bell only ties.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 17, 2012 18:20:30 GMT -8
I used to argue for that as well, but Omastar is pretty important - and remember that Razor Leaf isn't an automatic CH for either Weepinbell or Ivysaur. Ivysaur has a higher chance of actually critting. Also Weepinbell doesn't get Body Slam, and instead has to go for Double-Edge.
Sleep Powder is important on both because there's not a lot of good sleepers in the metagame - either they have bad stats (Gastly, Exeggcute), bad typing (Parasect, Weepinbell/Ivysaur, though arguable), or bad moves (Vileplume). You really don't want too many of them on the same team, which is also why many common leads are anti-leads (Rapidash is the premier example) rather than regular ones.
|
|
|
Post by brookman on Apr 17, 2012 18:36:53 GMT -8
let's not forget that 90% accuracy razor leaf misses more than blizzard
just went on and used vic: edited the 95% to 905 )_)
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 17, 2012 18:37:52 GMT -8
lol, very true indeed
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 17, 2012 18:53:00 GMT -8
I typically run Razor Leaf/Sleep Powder/Body Slam/Leech Seed on Ivysaur, and it's probably his most effective set. LS is there if you predict a switch-in, especially for targets with high HP such as Machamp and Wigglytuff. Probably not the best idea against Abra, though.
Unless Stun Spore really is that important to you, I'd say go with Ivy over Weep. You absolutely need that advantage over Omastar, not to mention a better chance to CH with Razor Leaf. Neither of the two are going to be effective with Swords Dance anyway.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 17, 2012 19:19:32 GMT -8
I love Ivysaur as a pokemon, in fact I main him in brawl (solo Ivy), but I just can't see him or bell doing much damage in the meta. I hope I'm wrong though.
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 17, 2012 19:24:39 GMT -8
Also, don't forget that Gastly hard walls both of them. They're useful for Omastar and for scaring Rocks and Waters, though unless they're paralyzed you'll be eating a Blizzard first. Situational, yes, but pretty good if you can get into such a position.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 18, 2012 2:21:12 GMT -8
Dre, purely for comparison - who would you use as a sleeper in NU?
I also agree with Zilch that Swords Dance is overrated. My Weepinbell runs SSpore/SPowder/RLeaf/DEdge, as it'll never be in a position to sweep regardless of what it does. Better to dish out damage while you can.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 18, 2012 3:10:30 GMT -8
I don't know really. I'm starting to find sleep less and less useful. My current NU team has both eggy and poliwag running sleep.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 18, 2012 3:30:46 GMT -8
Exeggcute is viable as he has a good typing and nice moves, though horrible stats - but Poliwag is just meh. I think you'd OHKO Rhyhorn, but that's it.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 18, 2012 3:40:59 GMT -8
Yeah wags not that good. He's the fastest sleeper though. I don't rate sleep too highly anymore.
I was thinking of charmeleon though. His stats are poor apart from his speed, but he gets sdance, slash and dig. Dig isn't as bad as it sounds, because apart from fearow, everything else that likes switching in on sd eq is weak to fire.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 18, 2012 4:05:23 GMT -8
I have never seen Charmeleon, so let me Theorymon about him.
His stats are more or less terrible - Rapidash has higher everything. Higher HP (333/319), higher Attack (298/228), higher Defense (238/214), higher Speed (298/258) and higher Special (258/228). Obviously, there has to be something to the moves that salvage Charmeleon, and that something has to beat a Rapidash set of FBlast/BSlam/HBeam/Agility. So let's look.
Charmeleon gets Counter, Dig, Flamethrower, Mega Kick, Seismic Toss, Slash, Submission and Swords Dance (no Earthquake). Left out a few options I don't consider viable (Leer). To do anything worth considering in terms of damage, Charmeleon has to opt for Swords Dance. He also wants a STAB move, which will be Fire Blast as Flamethrower lacks power. Now you have two moves to cover Charmeleon with, and at least one has to be physical. You could of course go with Body Slam, but there's a redundance of Recover/Rest users in the meta and it'll take you three moves to deal roughly the same damage that Rapidash would have dealt in the same time - until then, Rapidash deals more damage, and that's ignoring Critical Hits. He also doesn't get Hyper Beam, so no finisher for Char. You're really left with Submission and Dig. And honestly, even if the surprise value is high, I don't really fear a FBlast/SDance/Submission/Dig Pokémon, regardless of name.
The only thing it has is Slash, which deals damage roughly equivalent to Rapidash's Double-Edge. It's not boosted by SDance though, so running them on the same team is not something I'd recommend.
Also Staryu laughs in Charmeleon's face.
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 18, 2012 4:25:04 GMT -8
Yeah dash is better, but char at least has a niche in that it can damage rocks (including omastar and excluding aerodactyl, although it does get submission) and probably beat other fires with either sd dig or counter.
Weezing seems genuinely interesting though. It's just a shame though that it only ohkos abra with hbeam if it gets a high roll.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 18, 2012 4:59:19 GMT -8
Having low HP and defense means that you'll probably get to use Counter once, and that means dropping another move - and even still assuming your opponent won't just go Staryu.
I honestly don't know a lot about Weezing. I think Muk is superior in NU, but Weezing could still prove viable as he outspeeds a few Pokémon that Muk does not (Omastar springs to mind which is useful due to Thunderbolt).
|
|
Dre
Member
Posts: 397
|
Post by Dre on Apr 18, 2012 5:57:12 GMT -8
Thunderbolt 2hkos fearow and staryu but only 3hkos omastar and seadra. Thunder 2hkos all of them, and high roll does 99% to staryu, meaning it'll ko if it takes any damage beforehand.
Fire blast 2hkos the main grasses, and roughly 3hkos gastly.
EQ machamp will usually beat weezing as it will 2hko with high rolls, but will have to watch out for fire blast burn, and so will rhyhorn.
Sludge 2hkos abra takes any damage at all it'll be kod by hyper beam.
Of course there's explosion too. That's all I can think of for now.
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 18, 2012 8:43:41 GMT -8
About the Fire thing, don't forget that Magmar's in the tier as well. Magmar can become a royal pest with enough luck (Confuse Ray, Smokescreen) and carries Psychic, though that's only for Poisons and Fightings. He also has decent physical attacks, though they're a bit weaker than Rapidash's. He has some versatility, but overall I still find Rapidash to be better.
Flareon's there, too, but she's too slow and physically frail to be a force. At least her physical attacks have some punch to them, and Quick Attack provides a small means to get around the speed issue. I'd still use her over Charmeleon, though.
|
|
|
Post by brookman on Apr 19, 2012 17:30:42 GMT -8
flareon is a beast, if only she were slightly faster. . . like 288 speed or something >_> @arcanine
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 19, 2012 19:01:25 GMT -8
Arcanine always sort of disappointed me. He's supposedly a pseudo-legendary with some of the better stat totals in RBY, even if his Special is somewhat middling, but he's ruined by poor typing and a ehh movepool. He's pretty much a well-rounded Rapidash with Dig who doesn't particularly excel at anything. Imagine Mario from a sports game, just as a dog and on fire.
But yeah, poor Flareon deserves better. We used to pick on the kids who used a Fire Stone on Eevee back in '98 because even back then, Jolteon was the way to go.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 20, 2012 4:07:37 GMT -8
Yeah, even as a 7-year old I picked Jolteon over the others due to his superior movepool. Perhaps not the best reason, but I picked right at least.
|
|
|
Post by brookman on Apr 20, 2012 5:47:56 GMT -8
I just got zapdos and drill pecked everything..
speaking of drill peck, did we talk about fearow??
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 20, 2012 6:16:56 GMT -8
Fearow is probably the best physical sweeper in NU once Rhyhorn and especially Omastar are gone. He solidly beats Machamp and the grasses with Drill Peck, and Double-Edges/Hyper Beams the rest. Fearow's Hyper Beam is the strongest attack in NU, except for Explosions. A physical beast.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Apr 20, 2012 10:22:44 GMT -8
Seadra is the best Pokemon in NU. But maybe not, in that case it's because of Staryu.
You can compare Fearow with Dodrio in OU. Well, that's how I see it at least. Of course, that seems to mean that Fearow in NU is a shitty Pokemon, but that's because Tauros and Snorlax (and Kanga to an extent) exist and are above Dodrio in OU, while in NU Fearow doesn't face competition for its role. In any case, Fearow has too many walls / bad matchups to be a top mon. It's a great cleaner though, assuming your opponent can't switch to said walls.
Exeggcute sleeps for me. It has good matchups against other grass types so I can easily switch into them after they sleep something. And it makes a pretty good Machamp switchin as well. And explodes.
Dragonair works as my sleep absorber / lead. It can hit sleepers for SE damage, paralyze stuff, boltbeam, D-E away and it's fast enough.
Marowak is pretty good too and I'd actually take it over Machamp. Much like in UU, Machamp is a world-beater on paper, but not so much on practise. Slow, lack of useful resistances / good matchups and a pretty bad STAB move. But don't get me wrong though, it's pretty good in NU and one of the top mons for sure. But Marowak's ability to neutralize/capitalize on magneton is just so useful. Omastar + Marowak is a pretty straight forward alternative to Rhyhorn + Machamp / whatever, although this doesn't mean you can't mix and match these four.
Magneton is as useful in NU as in UU actually, you just need to take out Buzz from UU to make that comparison. Best electric-type in NU (and the only viable electric-type for that matter) gives Magneton a solid place in the top-ten.
As said NU is another meta dominated by water-types, so Fire-types remain pretty bad.
Wigglytuff is really good, with the ability to 1 on 1 against almost everything in the game, and unlike many others it doesn't partly depend on matchups. A Snorlax-like Pokemon in NU, without SD but with Twave and the odd Sing (however, NU is different than OU, much faster and not as especially oriented defensively and physically oriented offensively, so Wigg isn't exactly as good as OU Snorlax).
Idk about Muk. It seems pretty mediocre but nonetheless viable enough. Arbok too (and I'd say Arbok is top 1 if wrap is allowed).
|
|