Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 5, 2012 9:25:26 GMT -8
This place is dead, so I thought I'd try and inject some life into it with this thread. Basically, the idea is that we look at two pokemon who have traditionally competed for the same role on a team (the classic example is golem vs rhydon) and then determine who's better.
People here are probably sick of golem vs rhydon, so here are a couple I had in mind-
Weezing v Muk Venusaur v Victreebell Ivysaur v Weepinbell in NU Sandslash v Graveler in UU Kabutops v Pinsir in UU Kangaskhan v Persian v Dodrio Magneton v Electrode in NU Poliwrath v Golduck in UU Magmar v Flareon in NU Rhyhorn v Marowak in NU Seadra v Omastar in NU
I can't think of any others at the moment, but let me know of any others if you can.
Some people are probably going to say that they are better in different scenarios, but the question is which one has overall more potential in the meta. So if you had to commit to one of them for an entire tourney, which one the better option would be.
Let's start with Weezing v Muk.
Go.
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Post by Dexter on Jul 5, 2012 9:45:46 GMT -8
In OU? Weezing outspeeds exeggutor and chansey, so I'll go with that.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 5, 2012 9:47:30 GMT -8
Muk is better than Weezing.
Weezing is very predictable (Sludge, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Explosion) while Muk has multiple viable options (Thunderbolt, Body Slam, Mega Drain, Acid Armor, Screech). Muk has the stronger Explosion of the two (third strongest attack in the game) and is guaranteed to get one off (bar CH's) due to his high HP. The only Pokémon Weezing is better against is Exeggutor due to outspeeding, the others I'd call Muk better due to higher power and less predictability (Weezing is hard-walled by Golem/Rhydon).
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Post by GGFan on Jul 5, 2012 13:03:06 GMT -8
Mega Drain is Muk's selling point in OU over Weezing. I would always use that, especially since it has great synergy with Acid Armor: predict the GolDon switch-in, use Acid Armor, and let the fun begin.
Thunderbolt is good on Weezing, ostensibly because he has good Special, but really because he has nothing better to use. Muk, on the other hand, has too many better options to ever bother with Thunderbolt, a highly situational move. It facilitates the 2HKO with Explosion against Cloyster, but let's face it, he is practically NU in OU.
As for Weezing, I always use Hyper Beam instead of Fire Blast. Fire Blast is Weezing's only option against Gengar and GolDon, but the game is probably over if you're trying to land a desperation burn. Hyper Beam can allow Weezing to finish off weakened Pokemon before killing himself.
I'd say that Muk is better by a few hairs, if only because he's walled by one less Pokemon. I don't think the better movepool would come in handy that much; for Muk, it's all about scoring the 2HKO, and he already does that well enough with Sludge and Explosion.
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Post by jorgen on Jul 5, 2012 13:30:45 GMT -8
Weezing v Muk Venusaur v Victreebell Kangaskhan v Persian v Dodrio
Pretty cut-and-dry imo. Muk's Boom is more rewarding, and let's face it, Boom is the only reason to bother with the poisons. Plus he gets MD to take on the Rocks, which Weezing can't hope to do. Victreebel beats Venusaur because the Speed drop is mostly irrelevant, you shouldn't be needing the extra sliver of bulk Venusaur provides, and Victreebel has far superior Attack. Persian wins because it outpaces the vaunted Tauros and has a really high, steady damage output (that can smash through Reflects, no less). Kanga isn't walled by Gengar, but its Special is too low and its Speed and Attack too meh to make it worthwhile. Dodrio gets stomped by Rocks (more common and threatening than Gengar) and has a BoltBeam weakness to deal with.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 5, 2012 15:22:33 GMT -8
Good stuff, but isn't muk's mdrain like a 4hko on the rocks? Meanwhile I imagine they 2hko him with equake in return.
What about Ivy vs Weepinbell?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 5, 2012 15:23:39 GMT -8
As said, Acid Armor for EQ users, and MDrain is a 3HKO, not 4HKO.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jul 5, 2012 15:35:46 GMT -8
Ivysaur > Weepinbell. That extra chance to critical with Razor Leaf makes a huge difference in NU, and makes up for not having Stun Spore, IMO. Leech Seed is also nice to have, especially if your opponent switches to something like Machamp, Muk or Wigglytuff. The extra Speed also means that he ties with Omastar, and gives him a chance at a Razor Leaf OHKO.
It's not like either Weep or Ivy are going to be successful with Swords Dance anyway...
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Post by WaterWizard on Jul 5, 2012 16:18:33 GMT -8
Muk is superior in most cases because of Mega Drain and because he can explode. Weezing just has the speed thing going on, but that isn't much of an asset when looking at his team-role.
Use Venusaur in BL and Victreebel in OU. Ivysaur for the Leech Seed. Sandslash vs Graveler depends on what you need.
Kangy, Persian, and Dodrio are all incredibly unique and really can't be compared. They can all be superior to Tauros in various situations, and all situationally superior to one another as well. You're sort of comparing Counter, Slash, and Drill Peck / 318 HBs there.
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Post by Dexter on Jul 5, 2012 18:15:58 GMT -8
What IS weezing's team role? I'm not asking out of curiosity - I've used weezing before and I know exactly what I'm using it for and what role it serves on MY team - but just for the sake of argument/discussion what role do you think Weezing/Muk best accomplishes?
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Post by jorgen on Jul 5, 2012 18:20:09 GMT -8
Muk is superior in most cases because of Mega Drain and because he can explode. Weezing just has the speed thing going on, but that isn't much of an asset when looking at his team-role. Weezing Explodes, too. It's just a much weaker Explosion coupled with a weaker anti-Rock play. The extra Speed is actually pretty handy; it helps that much more when it comes to keeping Egg out of your face. Guaranteed outspeeding of (potentially Reflect) Chansey and tying Lapras are also pretty nice.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 5, 2012 19:54:01 GMT -8
Zilch- Ivy actually outspeeds omastar. It's weepinbell that ties with omastar.
Weezing is basically an inferior explosion with different type coverage type coverage. Fire and electric is pretty unique.
I think fire electric is better in NU because it is either SE or threatens burns.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jul 5, 2012 20:09:04 GMT -8
Oops. Well, in that case, Ivysaur is clearly better.
Weezing can hit a lot of NUs for super-effective damage, and he's one of the few non-Rocks and non-Electrics that actually stands a chance against Fearow in the one-on-one. He also has a decisive advantage against all the Grass-types (including Exeggcute, who is often 2HKO'd by Sludge). Honestly, Weezing's biggest threat in NU is Gastly, especially if the ghost is packing Psychic. Abra's also a big threat, though Psychic won't OHKO. Magneton's also a good choice as a counter. Earthquake users Machamp and Rhyhorn both have to worry about Fire Blast burns (and in the former's case, Explosion), and the best Lickitung can do is a paltry 4HKO without Swords Dance assistance.
While I'm not saying that Weezing is top NU (I've seldom used him myself), he can deal some good damage on most opponents before going out with a bang, and he doesn't have Muk's speed problems.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 6, 2012 1:40:45 GMT -8
Sorry, I meant to say he does well against NU physicals, not just NU in general.
Also, if Abra comes in on sludge, he's then in hbeam range.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jul 9, 2012 3:11:50 GMT -8
I use Muk in my NU-for-OU team (it's got me two wins so far!), and I think it's better than weezing due to the higher attack. I get away with a Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Mega Drain/Explosion set. Weezing sp attacks are pretty useless and should probably be using a similar set to Muk but with TB over MD which sort of gets Starmie and Lapras/Cloyster but loses Golem/Rhydon which resist everything else which is imo a bad trade.
Victreebel is better than venusaur due to learning stun and wrap (even if you are not using them having these moves in the movepool makes it more unpredictable). And only taking into account the stats I'd probably still pick Vict.
I usually prefer Graveler in UU because it explodes and SDing with Sandlash in UU is pretty useless from my experience with so many waters around.
Kabutops is a worse Kingler in every regard so my vote goes to Pinsir here.
Persian.
Magneton is the best electric in NU. Electrode is pretty bad.
Poliwrath vs Golduck is a difficult one... I usually use both. Golduck does the standard amnesia set much better, but Poliwrath is much more unpredictable with Hypnosis/Psychic/EQ/Stab Submission.
I'd say Flareon because it hits much harder but both are pretty bad... (but flareon is arguably the second best fire-type in OU after Moltres though).
The last two are eeeh, but i think i'm picking Marowak and Seadra.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 9, 2012 5:30:20 GMT -8
Why would flareon be the second best fire type in OU ahead of things like charizard?
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Post by Crystal_ on Jul 9, 2012 8:36:50 GMT -8
Hits starmie/chansey/alakazam much harder (84 base attack from zard to 130 from Flareon and higher special as well). Jynx is the only thing Charizard and most other fyre-types outspeed and Flareon doesn't.
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Post by Dexter on Jul 9, 2012 8:57:54 GMT -8
charizard gets swords dance and earthquake, and slash does more immediate damage than body slam despite the lower attack
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Post by WaterWizard on Jul 9, 2012 10:10:29 GMT -8
Crystal has a point about the speed advantage. Jynx is the most common pokemon that fits between the speed gap. But Flareon can OHKO's Jynx; Charizard cannot.
That being said, Swords Dance, EQ, Slash, etc make Charizard pretty nice in any tier. It's tough to compare the two. I'm not sure who is "better" in OU.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jul 9, 2012 10:16:29 GMT -8
but you'll probably be using body slam in the switch-in because you'll need the para on starmie/zam to have a chance against them (assuming you manage to actually force a switch out with the fyte-type). And I'm pretty sure it's better to use fire blast against golem/rhydon than eq.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jul 9, 2012 11:35:25 GMT -8
I prefer Rapidash to Flareon in NU simply because of the Speed advantage, not to mention some extra bulk. It's a bit muddy in OU, but then again, I never use Fire-types there, so I'm probably not the authority to judge that. Still, one would think Charizard would be more useful...
(no, my mono-Fire team doesn't count)
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 9, 2012 12:04:26 GMT -8
I think Flareon might be underrated in NU, with all the fragile mons and access to Quick Attack, it should stand a chance despite the shallow move pool.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 13, 2012 22:12:26 GMT -8
Fires are countered by a lot in NU though. Most fires can't really threaten omastar, and he probably likes the burn from switching in on fireblast.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jul 13, 2012 22:37:20 GMT -8
No NU Fire type really threatens Omastar unless you're running some weird Submission Magmar set, and even then Omastar easily wins the 1v1. Alternatively, you could just hope for a Psychic special fall or some Confuse Ray magic. Or just switch to Staryu. Y'know, whatever strikes your fancy...
Fire types are decent in NU, though. As I've said, I believe Rapidash is the most useful of them thanks to the speed and attack. Rhyhorn and the other physicals also really don't appreciate Fire Blast's presence. Shame about those Waters, though.
Oh, and while I'm on the topic of NU Waters, I really think Slowpoke needs some testing. I've tried him in a few battles, and he can hold his own surprisingly well - almost like a mini-Slowbro. Fearow's max with Double-Edge followed by Hyper Beam is 102%, meaning Slowpoke will almost always have time for a quick Thunder Wave and a nap. Just keep him away from Electrics (Magneton's Thunderbolt is a guaranteed OHKO without Amnesia backing, but Electrode can't make the same claim) and Razor Leaf (though Ivysaur only has about a 18% chance to OHKO) and you may be surprised.
Amnesia/Psychic/TWave/Rest. Psychic over Surf due to the presence of Poisons and Fightings, not to mention the need to hit Staryu hard. Abra's not a threat as he can't Recover (must be those spoons...) and Seismic Toss can't take Slowpoke out quickly enough. Same goes for Drowzee, who can still Rest but will eventually receive a Special fall. Exeggcute can be troublesome, though, thanks to Leech Seed taking advantage of Slowpoke's 383 HP, and of course Explosion.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 13, 2012 23:35:58 GMT -8
Yeah slowpoke struck me as a good NU mon.
Ok fires can do some damage, but doing damage in NU isn't the same thing as being good in NU. To do that you have to justify a slot over other NU pokes.
Scaring physicals with burns is good, but if you see that your opponent has a fire, just conserve your omastar like you would your ground if your opponent had a zapdos in OU, and just let your other waters (you should probably have at least 2 waters on your team) do whatever you wanted omastar to do.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 14, 2012 1:33:42 GMT -8
Although many NU teams have 2 waters (Staryu + Omastar/Seadra), only Omastar is really comfortable switching in as a Body Slam paralysis on Staryu can do bad things on it. Not every team carries Omastar either - it's a very good Pokémon for sure, but it's not like Tauros in that you need it on every team. Dragonair is a not-too-shabby counter as it can cripple with Thunder Wave, but I think it's sort of rarely seen.
Rapidash also forces switches - having Ivysaur on your team to back him up is very nice if you are good at predicting. The common switch-ins on Rapidash are Omastar, Staryu, Rhyhorn, Seadra, and Dragonair if you for some reason didn't have it as your lead. Ivysaur does good against all of those except the rarest of them (Dragonair). If I predict an Omastar switch (the most effective counter by far), an Ivysaur double-switch puts me in a brilliant position.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 14, 2012 8:18:38 GMT -8
Omastar really should be on every team though. The reason is not is probably due to how undeveloped meta is.
Also, your first paragraph doesn't really make sense. I said that you should conserve your omastar if you see they have a fire and let other waters do other 'watery' jobs, then you say that other waters don't like coming in on bslams. If it's a bslam from a fire, then omastar will be the one who is coming in on it. That's the point, that omastar takes care of fires, and frees up your waters to do other jobs, and they likely won't be coming on bslams. Even then, waters like slowpoke don't really mind bslam paralysis as much as other mons anyway.
Fires are certainly viable, but I just don't see what they can do that can justify a slot over other pokes. If you like burning physicals you might as well just use weezing, who lures in similar pokemon, but can hit waters with tbolt and can blow up.
I don't like mentioning chain-switching and the like, because really any position can become advantageous for you if you look at all the possibilities. I could just easily say that I could bring in a machamp or rhyhorn into a fire, then switch to starmie to try and get a fblast burn.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 14, 2012 10:39:28 GMT -8
Or because Omastar is dominated by other waters and Ivysaur? Just because you haven't been around doesn't mean the meta isn't evolved. Of course there's room for improvement, but Omastar not being a staple has a good reason - it does fine versus physicals and Fire types, but it has problems versus Staryu, Seadra and Ivysaur.
I am not assuming that everyone has an Omastar on their team in the first paragraph, I was just explaining why Rapidash was better than you gave it credit for. Slowpoke doesn't mind paralysis either, true - but I have almost never seen one in play.
Fires have heavy-hitting moves that cause nasty side effects, plus decently powerful Body Slams (and those aren't very common - I mean, the strongest one is from Wigglytuff, which is just sad). Rapidash is strong enough and fast enough to OHKO Abra with Hyper Beam, something Weezing cannot do. He also get a lot of crits and is one of the fastest Pokémon in the metagame, outspeeded only by Aerodactyl, Electrode and tying with Scyther.
At high level, you have to take into consideration what switches you can force. This is more true in future generations where you can Pursuit-trap things, but in RBY it matters too, and if you can get free sleeps from Ivysaur, you have a brilliant position, as sleepers aren't very powerful after sleeping something, but they have a good matchup versus Omastar that makes them viable.
Also, if I know that you carry Omastar on every team, I'll always carry Ivysaur. The reason that Tauros can be thrown on every team in OU is because there's nothing that is really powerful that can counter him (Cloyster isn't powerful). Since Omastar can be countered by a legit OU Pokémon, you are just allowing counterpicking for no reason.
Also, if you claim that Fires shouldn't be put on teams (that's what your third paragraph boils down to), Omastar loses a lot as he can only wall Fearow from there reliably.
If we faced in tournament, I'd put an Ivysaur, Staryu, Fearow and Rest-Magneton on my team. Once your Omastar is gone (and for those I have Ivy/Staryu/Magneton), Fearow should have a field day - unless you pack Rhyhorn too, but then you're having too many weaknesses to the Grass/Water/Electric combination that at least half of my team packs.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 15, 2012 1:05:12 GMT -8
Unless I'm mistaken, 2k10 has been around since 2010, and NU was never played before that. I wouldn't call that a developed meta when it's only been played for about two years by a very small playerbase and probably not played very often.
I don't see how saying that omastar is countered by a pokemon somehow means he shouldn't be a standard. Every mon in NU (and pretty much the entire game) has counters. The only instance where a mon shouldn't be a standard due to a counter is if it has a hard counter that's likely to be in teams (eg. zapdos and rhydon).
I wouldn't call ivy a hard counter to omastar. Ok he outspeeds and ohkos, but omastar 2hkos with blizzard or ibeam, so ivy can't be parad if he gets iced on the switch (which again, if you're going to talk about knowing your opponent's team, isn't that hard to predict then).
Hard counters are things like rhydon to zapdos or chansey to starmie, when they can come in with virtually any status bar freeze and at pretty much any health above like 20%.
I think struggling with waters is a bigger problem for omastar than struggling with ivysaur, but that's why you have other waters along side him. The point is that he deals with the physicals and the fires whilst the other waters do everything else.
Ok rapidash can outspeed and ohko with hbeam, but hbeam is always a gamble, and abra's frailty kinda makes hbeaming predictable in my opinion. Besides, abra can't switch into weezing without being put into ko range from hbeam, although he does outspeed weezing so he will put a dent in him before going down. I don't really rate abra too much to be honest, because he's too frail without recover, and has to watch out for hbeam on a lot of mons. I'm not going to argue that weezing is better than dash tho.
Fearow still loses to things like magneton and weezing (although you won't see many weezings).
I think that theoretically, fires can do a lot of damage if you predict a lot of stuff, but you can say that for a lot of pokemon. No NU fires are really that bulky either, so I don't see what they're switching in on.
I just struggle to see what should be cut for them. You should probably have 2-3 waters, a grass, an electric, and a physical (and maybe a rock if you don't have omastar). What are you dropping for a fire?
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Post by Crystal_ on Jul 20, 2012 4:08:03 GMT -8
Fire types suck. Why are you talking about them?
Seadra is the best pokemon in NU which is definitely not good news for Omastar. And thus the next logical step on the meta is.. staryu, which isn't good news for omastar either. Rock type definitely gives omastar more disadvantages that advantages: water neutrality, ground weakness and x4 grass weakness vs normal resistance (and normal attacks aren't as prevalent as in OU at all). Plus Omastar is slow.
Having said that I often use both. Omastar is great for normal attackers and still hits real hard (and stoss actually does something to seadra nonetheless)
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