The tiers are not a new concept

[Crystal_]

Why don't we do what everybody else do with the tiers (base pokes on usage) instead of making our own rules to make the tiers (base them on power, usefulness; making 800 tiers, making them only basing in "if we move it there, this tier will be unbalanced").

www.serebii.net/games/tiers.shtml

www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29788

www.smogon.com/articles/tiers

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tiers ->
Here look at this, is very important: A Pokémon is placed in BL only if it is too strong for the UU tier; its performance in OU has nothing to do with its status.

Now, Smogon people is becoming a bit more interested in RBY, and new RBY players are appearing while other veteran RBY players are returning to old gens as well. I don't want to "clash" with Smogon's tier system.

We are ten people, they are more than 100 RBY players and they are using the official way of tiering. Why are we making new rules for the tiers? Could anyone explain that to me?

[GGFan]

Why don't we do what everybody else do with the tiers

Because we're not everybody else.

Now, Smogon people is becoming a bit more interested in RBY, and new RBY players are appearing while other veteran RBY players are returning to old gens as well. I don't want to "clash" with Smogon's tier system.

Smogon isn't an authority on RBY.

We are ten people, they are more than 100 RBY players and they are using the official way of tiering. Why are we making new rules for the tiers?

There's no point in anybody coming here if this site is going to do nothing but shamelessly pander to Smogon just because they're a bigger site. RBY2K10 has become a more reputable source in competitive RBY over the course of three months than Smogon has in five years.

[Crystal_]

There's no point in anybody coming here if this site is going to do nothing but shamelessly pander to Smogon just because they're a bigger site. RBY2K10 has become a more reputable source in competitive RBY over the course of three months than Smogon has in five years.

Oh My God! I am very interested on changing the tiers, because Smogon's ones aren't up to date. What I don't want to, is creating new rules for making the tiers; it is not only Smogon who makes the tiers basing on usage, every pokemon forum that have own tiers base them on usage. Why don't you want to make the tiers basing on usage?

[Dexter]

GGFan

so you just want to be different just for the sake of being different? There's a reason the tiers are set up the way they are, because it's logical and makes sense.

You have OU, if there's anything broken in OU it's moved to Uber
then because OU gets boring sometimes you have UU
then if there's anything broken in UU you send it to BL
then if you get bored of UU you make a UU of UU, or NU
if there's anything broken in NU you move it to (NU ban tier)
continue on until you've exhausted your pokemon pool

I don't understand why you guys want to make everything so overcomplicated. when we already have a system that works. IMO this is the most objective way to make tiers. And besides, what purpose to tiers serve if they're not either: opening up a new metagame or banning something from an existing metagame?

[WaterWizard]

dexter, realize that if we did things the way you just described, the current BLs would all be UU, because they would be the ones being used. see, Dodrio wouldn't be banned, because she'd be playing with Cloyster and Hypno.

i used to agree with your way of doing tiers, but if we do that, we'd have to move all the BLs down to UU and start over. and then the current UUs would be NU, and the current NU would be NEU. so instead, we're just skipping that by trusting the original tiers, and modifying any glaring exceptions, while making BL competitive.

[Underboss]

Looking at the large size of the BL tier, it appears to me that after the big 14 of OU were found and the OU tier was created, what really went down was that the metagame was tested with Uber and OU banned, and the best of the best out of that metagame were considered BL. See that's the problem in thinking some people are having. They think it went OU to UU directly, with BL as simply a ban tier. Well it can't have been like that if BL is bigger than OU and UU, now can it? How can you have a ban tier as big as a competitive tier?

What must have happened as that all non-OU pokemon were tested in BL and the rejects from BL became UU. UU contains the rejects of BL much like NU contains the rejects of UU. Then the metagame was tested again with BL and OU banned and the best of the best there were picked as UU. All the other rejects got sent to NU.

Keep in mind that smogon doesn't even have an NU tier filled for RBY. Smogon's only concern with the tiers is the OU metagame and sometimes the Uber metagame. But my concern lies with the Uber, OU, BL, UU, AND NU metagames. The placement in the tiers only makes sense based on the methodology of OU -> BL -> UU -> NU and not OU -> UU -> NU with the 15ish pokemon of BL treated simply as a nicety ban tier that just happens to work perfectly as a competitive tier.

[Dexter]

Jun 11, 2010 16:41:08 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

dexter, realize that if we did things the way you just described, the current BLs would all be UU, because they would be the ones being used. see, Dodrio would be banned, because she'd be playing with Cloyster and Hypno.

Yes I realize that. What's so bad about that? (also how do you know "dodrio would be banned")

and what exactly does playing with cloyster and hypno have to do with his (dodrio is a boy) banishment? If anything, they would keep him from being banned because of their high defense and ability to cripple/ohko him.

i used to agree with your way of doing tiers, but if we do that, we'd have to move all the BLs down to UU and start over. and then the current UUs would be NU, and the current NU would be NEU. so instead, we're just skipping that by trusting the original tiers, and modifying any glaring exceptions, while making BL competitive.

so you stop agreeing with me because you're too lazy to test things out and instead would just rather "guess" how the tiers should be? Guessing leads to subjectiveness. Subjectiveness leads to arguments. Arguments lead to nowhere.

[Underboss]

Lol dexter, if you want to test the metagame with Uber and OU banned, which I assume is your definition of the UU metagame, be my guest. I guarantee that you will be using pokemon like Raichu, Dugtrio, Nidoking, and Cloyster and not Electabuzz, Graveler, and Blastoise. But hey, if you want to try it, I'll play with those non-OU pokes and you play with what you think is the best of non-OU pokes.

[Crystal_]

i used to agree with your way of doing tiers, but if we do that, we'd have to move all the BLs down to UU and start over

We don't need to do that. I know that Smogon forgot RBY many years ago, but the tiers they made in the RBY era shouldn't be very different than the current RBY2K10 tiers.

Therefore, we only need to check a few things (taking into account that for example we are playing without Wrap, and using a NU tier as well).

There's a reason the tiers are set up the way they are, because it's logical and makes sense.

Thanks Dexter, I thought I was the only one that believe that!!

[Underboss]

Dexter and Crystal, why can't you accept that there is no way that banning more pokemon from UU than are actually played in UU makes NO sense. There is no way that BL is a just a ban tier. Basically, you need to realize that BL is a competitive tier with a competitive metagame and that's how it was formed. They were the best pokemon to battle with once OU and Uber was created and then banned.

BL is BOTH a competitive tier and a ban tier of UU. I don't see why you can't understand that BL has two roles to play. It's just like the Uber tier in DPPt is the BOTH the ban tier of OU and a competitive tier. Seriously, no one is attacking tradition, and WW and I both support 5 tiers. It's just a change in thinking that is needed.

Realize that BL must have been and should be created in the way same that NU was created. We had OU, and then the pokemon that didn't quite make the cut made it to BL. Then the rejects of BL made UU. And I think all of us agree that NU was created from the rejects of UU.

Seriously, I don't care what Smogon or other communities did in the past. We are smarter than them because we have access to all of their collective experience and now we can add our own creative thinking. We play RBY OU better than Smogon. It used to be that Jolteon was top 5 in the OU, and that changed. Smogon doesn't even have an NU tier in RBY and RBY2K10 moved away from Smogon by creating it's own NU tier. NOW, I simply propose thinking of BL as a competitive tier, and thus UU is the rejects from BL.

[WaterWizard]

oops i just edited that to say "wouldn't be banned." the point is, the current BL tier is clearly not a ban tier for UU. they would never all be banned.

[Dexter]

Jun 12, 2010 13:27:04 GMT -8 Underboss said:

Dexter and Crystal, why can't you accept that there is no way that banning more pokemon from UU than are actually played in UU makes NO sense. There is no way that BL is a just a ban tier. Basically, you need to realize that BL is a competitive tier with a competitive metagame and that's how it was formed. They were the best pokemon to battle with once OU and Uber was created and then banned.

who said anything about that? Really, we're arguing semantics here anyway. I want the current BLs to be labeled UU and any outliners like jolteon and articuno(okay, they're not broken in BL imo but they're examples) or whatever else we find to be broken to be labeled BL. This keeps consistancy ion that OU is still the tier where the overused tier represents actual overused pokemon not just "pokemon too good for BL" Most of the group of pokemon in UU would then get bumped down to NU except the few who find a niche in new UU with all the old BLs (I'd guess things like kingler). Then if you want to use even shittier pokemon you move down a tier, etc. etc. BL is only a competetive tier right now because smogon was retarded about tiers up until gen 4. I don't want to ban 15 pokemon from competetive play, just relabel, reform, and polish the tiers so they represent what they're actually supposed to represent. I cannot do this alone, it would take a community effort to test and balance everything, but that seems pretty impossible right now considering out of 7 or so people nobody can come to a consensus.

BL is BOTH a competitive tier and a ban tier of UU. I don't see why you can't understand that BL has two roles to play. It's just like the Uber tier in DPPt is the BOTH the ban tier of OU and a competitive tier. Seriously, no one is attacking tradition, and WW and I both support 5 tiers. It's just a change in thinking that is needed.

Its only that way because smogon let BL is huge to the point where it essentially IS UU. BL is supposed to be a ban tier. If you aren't going to make it that, don't call it BL, call it UU. However, we can't just fix it with a simple change of name because there are a few pokemon that are currently UU that may or may not have a niche in what is currently BL, and there also may be a few pokemon that may or may not be too good for BL.

Realize that BL must have been and should be created in the way same that NU was created. We had OU, and then the pokemon that didn't quite make the cut made it to BL. Then the rejects of BL made UU. And I think all of us agree that NU was created from the rejects of UU.

That's not how the tiers are supposed to work though. If something isn't used enough in OU(over used), it is UU(under used). If it's too good for UU but isnt used enough for OU, it is BL(borderline)! Wouldn't you know, the names actually make sense that way!

Seriously, I don't care what Smogon or other communities did in the past. We are smarter than them because we have access to all of their collective experience and now we can add our own creative thinking. We play RBY OU better than Smogon. It used to be that Jolteon was top 5 in the OU, and that changed. Smogon doesn't even have an NU tier in RBY and RBY2K10 moved away from Smogon by creating it's own NU tier. NOW, I simply propose thinking of BL as a competitive tier, and thus UU is the rejects from BL.

I don't like your elitist attitudes toward smogon. They have great battlers there like captain kirby and giga punch. Some of them suck, sure, but that's what you get when you have such a large community. Seriously, the "smogon sux at rby" mentallity growing here is getting pretty annoying.

EDIT: a lot of you seem to be confused on how smogon formed the current RBY tiers. IIRC it went a little like this: one person culled through the list of pokemon and placed them individually in the tier they thought they "should" be in based on who knows what. Then they debated it for 15 pages in this thread

[Underboss]

I'm saying that Smogon messed up in it's tier system in RBY in that they treated the tiers simply as a way to measure usage and power in OU. I think we need a tier system that outlines more metagames than just OU and then possibly has ban tiers to make them balanced. Four competitive tiers plus a ban tier for each competitive tier. That makes a 8 tier system for a tier system that tries to outline 4 balanced metagames. Maybe we can have a separate ranking list for usage in OU. Maybe we need two different tier systems.

The tier system that outlines the 4 metagames could be numbered or possibly lettered. So then we would use terms like Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and Tier 4 or Tier A, Tier B, Tier C, Tier D. And then have ban tiers for those competitive tier AFTER rigorous testing in that tier's metagame. And then we would rework it little by little as we tested it more and found which pokes were broken in which tier.

The tier system that outlines usage and power in the "Standard" metagame (aka the OU metagame or Tier 1 or Tier A metagame) could use the old names of OU, BL, UU, NU etc.

It's hard to say whether this two different goals can be reconciled under just one ranking system. I tried by creating an 8 tier system to encompass 4 metagames that collapses into 5 tiers that keep the old names and possibly show the power and usage in OU. But some people rejected that. And there seems to be some contradictions between these two goals.

Icy, for example, thinks that Kingler is BL because he has a lot of usage in the Standard OU/Tier 1 metagame. But he isn't broken in UU so why should he be banned from UU?

Some say Jolteon wouldn't be broken in BL, but that he has a lot of use in OU. So is he gonna be BL or OU? It's a Lose-Lose situation here.

Although I will say this, just because we are smaller than Smogon doesn't mean we should automatically do everything they did and do in RBY. They've neglected RBY and I think we can add some new creative thinking to RBY.

[Crystal_]

BL is BOTH a competitive tier and a ban tier of UU. I don't see why you can't understand that BL has two roles to play. It's just like the Uber tier in DPPt is the BOTH the ban tier of OU and a competitive tier. Seriously, no one is attacking tradition, and WW and I both support 5 tiers. It's just a change in thinking that is needed.

Yeah, and because of this it is not based on the usage of the tier above (OU) like the other ban tiers (Uber), and is based on the "too poweful pokes in the tier below (UU)"; but is a competitive tier that can be played like other standard tiers such as OU, UU or NU.

[GGFan]

so you just want to be different just for the sake of being different? There's a reason the tiers are set up the way they are, because it's logical and makes sense.

But this site isn't being different for the sake of being different. And in regards to the post about tiers, I'm not referring to the system, rather the experimentation and rumination that has gone into the placement.

BL is supposed to be a ban tier

BL can be whatever it wants to be, really. I see no reason why it can't be considered a valid metagame.

[posthuman]

Crystal, you think tiers should only be based on usage within that tier. Our community is somewhat small now, correct? We have a limited number of players to base the usage of each Pokémon on, so I do not agree that we can use this system.

Placement in tiers should be based on a union of usage and theory. If a Pokémon is used often in OU games, it should be in OU. Also, if a Pokémon is used somewhat in OU and is determined, by theory, to be viable in OU, it should be tested in OU situations and placed in OU or not depending on the testing. This applies to other tiers as well.

I think the 5 tier system can work, but most of us need to agree on it. We can't have a tier system that half the community hates.

Crystal, is there a compromise we can come to?

[WaterWizard]

I agree with posthuman. although i don't see any way to compromise...

[Crystal_]

Yeah, I agree. But that's what I say too. The real thing is that the usage and viability should be the same. For instance, Beedrill isn't used neither often or somewhat so it is not OU.
The problem is to decide how many times somewhat is. For example Articuno and Jolteon are used enough to say that they are used somewhat?
This also goes for those that want stuff that Rhydon in UU/BL. It is used somewhat in OU, and is obviously viable for OU.
The tiers were decided to be based on usage, because the usage implies viability; a "somewhat" is going to be a "never" soon if the poke isn't viable/useful for OU. The somewhat will continue being "somewhat" if the poke is viable, just somewhat viable, for OU.

[Underboss]

The thing is, if you place a pokemon in OU, you ban it from BL. Some what some people want to see is some of the lesser used OU might actually not over-dominate the metagame that happens when OU and Uber is banned. In other words, the BL metagame.

If we are only going to have 5 tiers, and BL is going to a competitive metagame, then OU will become the ban tier of BL just like BL is the ban tier of UU and UU is the ban tier of NU.

Look, I think personally think that Jolteon and Articuno over-dominate the BL metagame because they are very good. Therefore, they became OU in my mind. If Rhydon is really worth his salt in OU, then he should be able to over-dominate BL in the same way. I think he would, but I would like to see some testing.

The same goes for Slowbro. If Slowbro is worth his shell in OU, then he should be able to over-dominate the BL metagame.

[Crystal_]

UU isn't the ban tier of NU. And OU isn't the ban tier of BL neither. And this is one of the most important things to know / understand abaut the tiers.

OU is not the tier in which "stuff that is too powerful for BL" is placed. It is the tier in which "stuff that is used in OU and is not too powerful for OU" is placed.

[posthuman]

I say "somewhat" just because we don't have enough people to base usage of each Pokémon on. If our community was larger, I might concede that basing tiers solely on usage would be okay. Because it is small, I do not think we can accurately use only usage as a factor.

For example, look at UU. Before you, Dexter, and spies were played in UU, it was boring. Water stalling, trying to switch to Zard on a Rest, etc. You came up with the idea of Dewgong's viability; Dexter and spies did the same with a few other Pokémon. Now, what if you three were not in the community at that time? UU would not be influenced by you, and it's possible that Pokémon such as Dewgong and Kabutops would be moved to NU. For UU, you three influenced the metagame a great deal. It's possible that OU has potential to change drastically, but it won't until someone tries something new, and this is less likely to occur with such a small community.

If viability is considered along with some usage, Pokémon such as Jolteon and Articuno can be given a chance to shine in OU. They both have good stats and are very usable in OU. In my opinion, I would say that they are both more useful than a Slowbro.

As for how much usage is "somewhat," I would say when a Pokémon is used enough to be noticed as a possible candidate for the tier above it, it should be considered. For OU, Cloyster is used once in awhile, but if you look at him mathematically, you see that while he is a decent counter against physical sweepers, he goes down very quickly to special sweepers (which are typically 2/3 of a team). Therefore, he should not be considered for OU.

[Crystal_]

Obviously Articuno and Jolteon are more common than Cloyster. Imo what we should do is to put them (art and jolt) in BL or OU (I dont mind), and then check if tehy are in teh correct tier, by waiting until more OU battles sre done.

And I know that without some of us, some pokes would have been NU instead of UU (Kabutops, dewgong). But sooner or later, one of us would have begun to use them because he would have discovered that they are viable.

And obviously there are some other pokes whose viability have not been discovered yet, but if other players would have been here, their viability would have been discovered, and hence they would have been more common.
And those pokes are NU instead of UU or UU instead of OU; but they are viable for UU/OU!

Therefore the usage is the main way of placing the pokes, because it includes (is) the viability that is happening at the moment. The viabilty that is going to be discovered in the future does not exist now.

Can you undersatnd me?

[posthuman]

"The viability that is going to be discovered in the future does not exist now."

But it does exist! It just hasn't been realized. Calculating Pokémons' viability can help discover their potential. If I may use the UU example again: before you, spies, and Dexter, why was Kingler in UU? I believe that he was only in UU because of his use in OU. I saw him more used in OU than in UU (though mostly by spies). Looking at his stats, moveset, and type, you can see that he has potential, but it wasn't discovered yet. If Kingler was placed into NU, he might have never been discovered as useful.

Look, my point is that if a Pokémon is in a lower tier than it theoretically should be in, than it's potential might not be discovered. The system I am pushing for promotes new strategies to be found. Your system waits for new things to be discovered on their own, which I believe only works with a larger population.

[Underboss]

See, this is the problem here. You are only treating OU and UU as competitive metagame and just treating Uber and BL as only ban tiers for those two competitive tiers when most everyone else said there would be no problem making BL a competitive tier like OU.

See if BL is going to a competitive tier like OU and UU, then it will need a ban tier of it's own to make it balanced. And if we are only going to have 5 tiers, the BL ban tier will have to be merged with OU. OU will have to be the ban tier of BL. The same applies for NU. When NU becomes more of a competitive metagame in the future, it will need it's own ban tier. Before, we were considering creating a separate tier called NU Ubers. But the compromise WW proposed meant that we treat UU as the NU ban tier. Thus we put Poliwhirl in UU.

IF Articuno and Jolteon were found to not over-centralize the BL metagame, then put them in BL. Who cares if they don't carry the title of OU or not? Just use them in OU anyway. It's like when people use UUs like Vaporeon in BL. It's also like when some people use NUs in UU. Those pokemon aren't necessarily broken in NU, but they have use in UU. The point of the tiers should be to create 4 balanced metagames, not to show usage relative to just two of them. Because otherwise it's simply just a system of assigning glory to pokemon.

[Crystal_]

Look, my point is that if a Pokémon is in a lower tier than it theoretically should be in, than it's potential might not be discovered.

But you are planing to test them! If you do that you are likely to dicover the potential of a poke as long as it has the potential. What I don't want is to move one thing too early. After its potential is discovered it will be more used. But you might discover a "wrong" potential, and if this happens this poke should not have been moved.

I for example discover the Kingler power by using it, and since his power in UU is real it became more used in UU.

If Kingler was placed into NU, he might have never been discovered as useful.

It will, sooner or later. Especially since everyone is planing to test everything.
And now X could be placed in NU while being useful in UU. Oh no! It is impossible to know the viability of a poke if it has not been discovered yet. And then every discovery should be checked. The usage is the responsible of doing that.

See if BL is going to a competitive tier like OU and UU, then it will need a ban tier of it's own to make it balanced. And if we are only going to have 5 tiers, the BL ban tier will have to be merged with OU.
IF Articuno and Jolteon were found to not over-centralize the BL metagame, then put them in BL. Who cares if they don't carry the title of OU or not?

Do you really think that we should change a 15-year tier system? Do you think that we are going to obtain something from that, being ten people? We can't do whatever we want with the metagame.
BL has always been a ban tier and should continue being. As a result BL only receives orders for UU and therefore from OU too.

[Underboss]

So no compromise from you, eh? I'm willing to accept WW's 5 tier compromise, but you can't, even though most people want it. Well, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the specifics are all that matters. And the specifics are that Jolteon and Articuno have been moved to OU. I support that move, WW supports it, Icy supports it, Posthuman supports it. Most of our community supports it. So it's probably going to stay that way. And I'm happy because I think BL is better off that way. They were no real over-centralizers to start with in BL, but those two came pretty close.

And if we base OU placement on usage in OU, well then Jolteon and Articuno still deserve to be in OU. They are used in OU decently often. They are really good pokemon, and Crystal it's going to take alot to convince people that they aren't OU.

I'm done debating the theory, I'm only going to debate the specific placements now because this philosophical discussion is going nowhere. And my position is that Jolteon and Articuno are very effective and useful pokemon, are used decently often in OU, and come pretty close to over-centralizing BL. For all these reasons, I support their placement in OU.

[Crystal_]

Obviously Articuno and Jolteon are more common than Cloyster. Imo what we should do is to put them (art and jolt) in BL or OU (I dont mind), and then check if they are in the correct tier, by waiting until more OU battles are done.

[Underboss]

Good, let's keep them in OU. After testing, we will see if they are good enough to be in OU. They probably will be IMO.

[Crystal_]

It is not between good or not. If nobody uses them they should be BL (a period is needed to determine the usage) and will became OU when they start being used.
If they are used in OU enough (like say Zapdos, Slowbro, Persian, Rhydon at least) they are OU.

[Underboss]

A pokemon should stay in a tier no matter how often it is used if he completely unbalances the metagames of all the tiers below. That's why Poliwhirl is in UU.