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Post by magic9mushroom on Jun 7, 2013 22:05:55 GMT -8
What it says on the tin. Anyone played much of it? Anyone know where to play it? Anyone have any insights on it?
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jun 8, 2013 0:27:13 GMT -8
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Post by Dexter on Jun 8, 2013 21:24:21 GMT -8
Ummmm alakazam was pretty good. And... Jolteon? I think. And Nidoking maybe
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jun 8, 2013 23:51:06 GMT -8
Ummmm alakazam was pretty good. Really? I'd have thought Amnesia Hypno would overshadow it. |
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jun 9, 2013 1:12:43 GMT -8
Ice/Thunderpunch is a huge asset.
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Post by jorgen on Jun 9, 2013 6:05:59 GMT -8
Hypno gets access to punches, too.
If anything, it's Recover that sets Zam apart.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jun 9, 2013 9:46:06 GMT -8
Hypno doesn't find the space for the extra attack - Amnesia, Psychic and Rest are musts, and I think having access to Sleep (or paralysis) makes him better, as he can be used earlier on.
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Post by cheese on Jun 9, 2013 11:05:51 GMT -8
Is Punch Zam really that good? He already holds his own vs Starmie and Eggy. I'd still consider using Reflect.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jun 9, 2013 13:50:13 GMT -8
Barrier > Reflect.  There's actually quite the difference between holding your own and flat out beating these threats. The change in move mainly affects lead Zam too, due to differences in playstyle between Barrier/Reflect sets and those without it. Ice Punch dents Eggy badly, especially should you get a Critical Hit, so Jynx is your best bet for sleeping something. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jun 9, 2013 13:56:25 GMT -8
Is Punch Zam really that good? He already holds his own vs Starmie and Eggy. I'd still consider using Reflect. RBY Zam can be stalled or taken out with Slowbro. With Punches, not so much. |
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Post by cheese on Jun 9, 2013 15:04:00 GMT -8
Barrier > Reflect. There's actually quite the difference between holding your own and flat out beating these threats. Oh, of course! I wasn't trying to argue that Reflect Zam was superior, just that I wouldn't necessarily automatically give Zam a punch on every team I used him. Also the fact he can learn punches can potentially help Reflect Zam too, as it'll make your opponent more cautious of switching in an Eggy before you reveal your full set. Ice Punch is a great choice for Zam that I'd regularly use, but I don't think it improves him dramatically. Magic9, you seem obsessed with Slowbro for some reason? I'm sure Ice Punch Zam will still lose badly to Slowbro barring a lucky freeze, and Thunderpunch opens up Eggy and potentially Golem/Rhydon to switch in. I personally wouldn't give Slorbro much (if any) consideration when picking a Zam set. |
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jun 10, 2013 0:33:03 GMT -8
Magic9, you seem obsessed with Slowbro for some reason?I'm sure Ice Punch Zam will still lose badly to Slowbro barring a lucky freeze, and Thunderpunch opens up Eggy and potentially Golem/Rhydon to switch in. I personally wouldn't give Slorbro much (if any) consideration when picking a Zam set. I made two points in the post you quoted; let me elaborate on both. 1) RBY Zam is vulnerable to being stalled out of Psychic, while this is significantly more difficult for a Zam that threatens Egg (and non-paralysed opponents) with Ice Punch. 2) RBY Zam is vulnerable to Slowbro, which is bad because Slowbro is reasonably common; with ThunderPunch this isn't an issue. |
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 9, 2013 7:21:51 GMT -8
Massive bump.
Punches aren't necessarily the best option, they're just a better version of stosszam (not even necessarily, as you're picking an SE plus resisted hit over simple neutral coverage). As everyone here knows, stosszam and reflectzam do different things and have different counters, so it's a matter of which you prefer. Punches don't help against physical pokemon, so you'd still go with barrier if you preferred the lategame zam.
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Post by jorgen on Jul 9, 2013 9:47:32 GMT -8
I dunno, having an Alakazam that can freeze opposing stallers with Ice Punch would be really nice, plus it puts to bed any lead Exeggutor plans.
However, I feel like I ultimately wouldn't bother with Zam with Hypno being as good as it is.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 9, 2013 19:45:51 GMT -8
It's a matter of team composition really. Ipunch would be good if you have nothing to stand up to eggy, but then you can't threaten starmie, jynx and other zam anymore.
The combination of freeze plus STAB psychic would make zam pretty threatening to chansey though.
Honestly I thought of hypno as more of a competitor to slowbro than zam. You don't really want amnesia users taking sleep or paralysis early game. Plus hypno is slow, so it has problems with wrap and doesn't counter wrap as well as zam does.
Not saying that zam is better, just that they have different roles and you can justify having both on your team.
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Isa
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Post by Isa on Jul 10, 2013 0:19:17 GMT -8
I tend to agree with Dre. The role of being an Amnesia user is more relevant than being mono-Psychic types. Slowbro gets better bulk (and avoids untimely CHs once it has set up) but Hypno is faster, has a better typing, generally speaking, and more moves to choose from aside from Amnesia+Rest+STAB.
While not being weak to anything is great, the physical bulk of Hypno leaves something to be desired. Barrier and Amnesia cannot co-exist according to Icy, the GSC guys probably knows why. Reflect is of course still an option though. The issue is that it is more or less needed - if you paralyze Hypno and make him Rest, if you predict when the Rest comes you can send in either Snorlax or Golem or Rhydon for a guaranteed 3HKO with Body Slam/EQ. Snorlax is the best bet generally since it lives even a 999 STAB Psychic and can boom if you mispredict and take a Psychic to the face.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 10, 2013 2:02:49 GMT -8
To be fair though, most of that logic also applies to slowbro. It needs reflect to comfortably rest loop physicals. Rhydon has a good chance of 3HKOing bro in a rest loop. Also, hypno isn't incredibly vulnerable to a free victreebel switch-in like slowro is. Being forced to switch out against a bel that that isn't locked into wrapping is one of the worst situations to be in.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jul 10, 2013 2:40:43 GMT -8
While not being weak to anything is great, the physical bulk of Hypno leaves something to be desired. Barrier and Amnesia cannot co-exist according to Icy, the GSC guys probably knows why. Barrier can only be gotten by breeding with Mr. Mime. Amnesia can only be on a Hypno received at the NYPC event. You can't both have received a Pokemon in an event and bred it yourself, thus Hypno cannot simultaneously have both moves. |
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Post by jorgen on Jul 10, 2013 3:03:18 GMT -8
Fair enough points on Hypno v. Alakazam not necessarily being competitors for a single teamslot. I just feel like having 2 pure Psychics relying on punches for coverage on my team might be a tad redundant, and given the choice I'd probably pick Hypno over Zam. Granted, this is likely due in no small part to new toy syndrome.
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Dre
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Post by Dre on Jul 10, 2013 17:04:36 GMT -8
Would Hypno being running a punch though. I assumed rest was a given, and the final slot was between twave and reflect.
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Post by jorgen on Jul 10, 2013 18:56:19 GMT -8
I guess I should clarify that, if they are to have coverage in the first place, it must be through a punch. Neither Hypno nor Alakazam necessarily needs to run an elemental punch.
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