|
Post by cheese on Apr 8, 2014 2:45:30 GMT -8
The problem with Swift is that its base power is relatively low and that the pokemon that have it generally aren't that good (and with one or two exceptions don't have STAB). I'm sure if you're using Sandslash you're likely to be running it, but you're probably not going to be using Sandslash.
As for Amnesia, not many pokemon get it. There's only Mewtwo, Slowbro, Poliwrath, Snorlax and Golduck. Amnesia Lax would probably be more popular (Samthedigital Lax would definitely be used more), and Poliwrath might scrape usage a bit more usage. I guess Slowbro is the one to benefit most in OU play.
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 8, 2014 19:24:04 GMT -8
Yeah, they'll generally be more stall. I think Reflect and Amnesia would be used more. Do you think that Swift would get a look in under these circumstances? Would only Slowbro go up, or any Amnesia User? Slowbro still outclasses Poliwrath and Golduck, so they would still see no use in OU. Snorlax might use Amnesia more often, but Lax is a top OU anyway and it still wouldn't be Uber. Amnesia Mewtwo gets slightly better (it loses the ability to crit through opposing Light Screen and Amnesia users, but otherwise its attacking power stays the same, and 25% evasion is godlike) but it's banned to hell and back anyway. (Also, Snorlax and Mewtwo are rather specially bulky anyway and have no special weaknesses, so they don't care as much about crits piercing Amnesia as Slowbro does. Snorlax does care a little about powerful STAB crits from Zam and Mie, but Mewtwo gives no fucks as even Articuno's Blizzard is only a 4HKO and it's got Recover.)
|
|
ddx2
Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by ddx2 on Apr 10, 2014 4:33:52 GMT -8
Metagame theory. What would battes be like in those with a "Type Clause". I don't mean banning certain types (though that'd be entertaining on its own), but your team can only have one of each type. So you couldn't have a Tauros and Chansey, or even a Dodrio and Snorlax on the same team.
Would any pokemon benefit from that? It would make for some more creative teams at least.
|
|
|
Post by cheese on Apr 10, 2014 5:28:16 GMT -8
I like this idea, it would definitely spice things up!
I'd think that Gengar would get more use, as it doesn't tread on any toes. It'd make a lot of pokemon unusable though. Jynx and Persian being two examples. You'd probably end up with something like:
Normal, Psychic, Ghost, Ice, Ground, Electric.
Tauros/Snorlax Eggy/Zam Gengar Lapras Golem/Rhydon Jolteon/Zapdos
Maybe something like Dragonite or Poliwrath would be useable as their weaknesses may be less apparent and they're types don't really overlap with much of the main stuff.
|
|
ddx2
Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by ddx2 on Apr 10, 2014 5:43:53 GMT -8
I just knew you were going to mention that team. Although now it looks like Earthquake might be more popular, especially with Gengar likely a staple over any Poison types and basically being a free slot. But when I mentioned this idea, I was secretly hoping it would somehow affect the meta enough that we'd see more Grass, Flying, Poison, and Fire types (and the odd Machamp). It looks like the only thing that changes is what the core pokemon would be.
|
|
|
Post by cheese on Apr 10, 2014 6:28:02 GMT -8
It's quite possible the metagame would change more than that!
There are inherent problems with the types you mentioned though.
Poison: Means you can't use Gengar. Poison attacks generally aren't that good. Grass: Other than Eggy (and Tangela!) Grass types are part poison. I doubt Tangela would be used in this format, but he'd probably be a bit better than in standard. Flying: Most flying are dual normal, meaning you're giving up Lax or Tauros (or Chansey). Other good choices are limited, with Zapdos being the best (Articuno is still cool though). Dragonite/Gyarados might find a place somewhere depending on the amount of Blizzards/Thunderbolts being chucked about. Fire: It's possible you might see Fire types I suppose. The problem is that the format doesn't necessarily improve them (Eggy may not be a guaranteed slot, for example).
I think fighting types would be improved with only 1 psychic about. Of course the loss of Normal pokemon hurts them, but overall it's a positive for them. Too bad the baseline is quite low.
|
|
|
Post by marcoasd on Apr 10, 2014 10:27:35 GMT -8
I don't know, but type clause would be nice. Maybe it would force teams even more; OU would look more like BL, and the electric type is still walled: Raichu could be a good TWave user. Tauros, Egg, Lapras and Golem/Rhydon as the new must use 4, Gengar and Zapdos/Dnite due to typing, with Gengar being THE lead without Starmie and Alakazam around. At this point, a fire type wouldn't be that bad.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 10, 2014 12:30:41 GMT -8
I'd say CounterBoltBeam Chansey is pretty damn good in this meta.
Never use Slowbro, all teams have Electrics.
Snorlax - tanklax, late game sweeper Gengar - NShade/TBolt Exeggutor - Stun Spore Lapras - three attacks + CRay Zapdos - Agility or Thunder as last? Rhydon - standard
What do you replace with a Fire type? Remember that unless you remove Zapdos, neither Charizard nor Moltres are allowed.
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Apr 10, 2014 14:35:40 GMT -8
Flareon > Gengar, probably.
|
|
|
Post by cheese on Apr 10, 2014 17:26:34 GMT -8
Looking at our ideas for standard teams, I think psychic Starmie could be a great meta-choice:
Chansey's use is significantly reduced. Lapras' use increased. A rock on every team. The only thing resistant to Psychic (on most teams) would be Eggy.
Of course you're giving up both Eggy and Lapras, which is a hefty sacrifice. Zapdos may also be a problem, but it's weak to Ice, is outsped and can't easily switch in.
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 10, 2014 19:34:31 GMT -8
I'd say CounterBoltBeam Chansey is pretty damn good in this meta. Being unable to Twave Tauros isn't my idea of fun. Fighting-types don't just suck because of Psychic types, they suck because the best Fighting move for most Pokemon is Submission which is only 80 BP, inaccurate, and has recoil. Hitmonlee has Hi Jump Kick, which is marginally better; it also, however, has no bulk whatsoever (second-worst special bulk of all fully-evolved Pokemon after Onix; physical bulk only slightly better than Alakazam) which means it's 2HKOed by every STAB attacker in OU, and even by non-STAB Blizzards off decent Special (Gengar sometimes OHKOs with Psychic!). Fire-types are, to a large extent, bad because Starmie exists; that said, Fire has poor coverage and no useful resistances, so there isn't much use for them anyway. They also have really bad movepools - apart from Charizard, none of them get any useful coverage or any juicy moves like sleep, setup, recovery, Explosion, or even reliable paralysis (though most of them do get Fire Spin).
|
|
|
Post by Agent Syrup on Apr 12, 2014 6:48:24 GMT -8
So how much would Psychic-types be nerfed if Cut was a base 55 high-crit move? And who would make it to the OU tier because of it?
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Apr 12, 2014 7:29:58 GMT -8
I don't think much changes. Not very many things get STAB on it, and most of the things that could use it half-decently are also Swords Dancers.
Now, maybe if you changed it to a Flying-type move on top of that, we'd start to see something more interesting.
|
|
ddx2
Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by ddx2 on Apr 12, 2014 9:40:48 GMT -8
Another interesting thing would be if every pokemon could learn a one turn attack of its type(s) that dealt 90-120 damage. I imagine a useful Dragon Rage that hits everything for neutral damage would make Dragonite very popular, in addition to all the other physical attackers. Pinsir/Scyther with a Megahorn, etc. In general lots of the attacks from GSC would be great to see (Which I'm pretty sure what RBY+ is semi-all about).
|
|
|
Post by Agent Syrup on Apr 12, 2014 11:12:04 GMT -8
Another interesting thing would be if every pokemon could learn a one turn attack of its type(s) that dealt 90-120 damage. I imagine a useful Dragon Rage that hits everything for neutral damage would make Dragonite very popular, in addition to all the other physical attackers. Pinsir/Scyther with a Megahorn, etc. In general lots of the attacks from GSC would be great to see (Which I'm pretty sure what RBY+ is semi-all about). I can't tell you how many times I thought about going back in time and convincing the dev team to do this. RBY could have been as fun as RBYPlus...
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 12, 2014 16:51:14 GMT -8
Another interesting thing would be if every pokemon could learn a one turn attack of its type(s) that dealt 90-120 damage. I imagine a useful Dragon Rage that hits everything for neutral damage would make Dragonite very popular, in addition to all the other physical attackers. Pinsir/Scyther with a Megahorn, etc. In general lots of the attacks from GSC would be great to see (Which I'm pretty sure what RBY+ is semi-all about). Because we totally need the hyper-caffeinated metagame of DPP.
|
|
|
Post by Agent Syrup on Apr 13, 2014 3:58:59 GMT -8
[/quote]Because we totally need the hyper-caffeinated metagame of DPP.[/quote]
Alright, someone's going to have to explain that one to me...
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 13, 2014 4:56:41 GMT -8
Alright, someone's going to have to explain that one to me... DPP has an extremely fast-paced metagame thanks in part to a LOT of new 120+ BP moves - Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Wood Hammer, Leaf Storm, Draco Meteor, Close Combat, Focus Blast, Power Whip, and the newly buffed Outrage. There are other factors in play - U-turn, more Choice items and Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and so on, but the new super-powerful moves were a part of it.
|
|
|
Post by jorgen on Apr 13, 2014 6:24:30 GMT -8
It's not just the moves. As you said, there's a ton of other factors involved, including limited EVs, Life Orb, and better boosting moves (which in turn necessitate Choice Scarfers everywhere) that make everything move quickly (and honestly, DPP hasn't been "hyper-caffeinated" for a while with all the overpowered Dragons gone, there's a pretty nice balance between defense and offense).
Honestly, the best mons in RBY that could make use of them already have their 90-120 BP moves (well Normals get 85 plus 30% para chance, which is better anyway). The only thing that giving 90-120 base power STAB moves to all mons would do is make a few more things viable.
|
|
|
Post by cheese on Apr 17, 2014 21:12:55 GMT -8
Okay here's one: what if there were a move clause? Only 1 of each move per team, but different moves with the same effects are allowed.
Would Persian or Slowbro become more popular? Would Snorlax and Tauros still be on every team? Their standard movesets share 3 moves after all.
At first I thought this would have a big impact on the game, but the impact probably won't be too great. Only 1 Thunder Wave and Body Slam per team seems to be the biggest difference, although only one Earthquake (coupled with the fact that Counter would be more likely) makes things interesting too). Snorlax has so many viable options it's hard not to find something for him to do (although I'd probably keep Body Slam for Tauros and use Double-Edge Lax).
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 17, 2014 21:21:59 GMT -8
Real RBYers use MEGA KICK.
|
|
ddx2
Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by ddx2 on Apr 18, 2014 2:43:44 GMT -8
We would like see an increase in more powerful, but less accurate versions of common attacks. Surf-->Hydro. TBolt-Thunder Fire Blasts, plus a bit more Light Screens and Reflects being used. Thunder on a Zapdos or anything could be incredibly dangerous during the times it hits. So there would be a *small* luck in battles, and water creatures may be more wary due to that.
Lots of the OU creatures have extremely wide movesets anyway, so they can replace common maneuvers with less-used ones anyway. Light Screen Chansey and Starmie which from what I see are used more often in Uber battles may be seen in Standard just to have a 4th move (and of course to replace Starmies recover on any teams it shares with Alakazam). Chansey is happy with its softboiled though.
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 18, 2014 3:18:31 GMT -8
(and of course to replace Starmies recover on any teams it shares with Alakazam) Starmie without Recover is bad. I'd pick Lapras or Slowbro over Recoverless Starmie any day. Also, Thunder on Zapdos and Lapras is a legit option even in standard OU. Thunder Zapdos 2HKOs Tauros and has a chance to OHKO Starmie and Slowbro (though it's usually used alongside Thunderbolt). Lapras' mediocre Special means it can't 2HKO Starmie with Thunderbolt, so Thunder's a decent option.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 18, 2014 3:49:00 GMT -8
Gengar: Hypnosis/Night Shade/Confuse Ray/Mega Drain Chansey: Softboiled/Ice Beam/Thunder Wave/Counter Exeggutor: Stun Spore/Sleep Powder/Psychic/Explosion Snorlax: Amnesia/Reflect/Surf/Rest Tauros: Body Slam/Earthquake/Hyper Beam/Blizzard Starmie: Recover/Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Light Screen
It got hard towards the end. At least we have the ultimate Slowbro/Rhydon/Golem counter mon. =p
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 18, 2014 16:24:18 GMT -8
Gengar: Hypnosis/Night Shade/Confuse Ray/Mega Drain Chansey: Softboiled/Ice Beam/Thunder Wave/Counter Exeggutor: Stun Spore/Sleep Powder/Psychic/Explosion Snorlax: Amnesia/Reflect/Surf/Rest Tauros: Body Slam/Earthquake/Hyper Beam/Blizzard Starmie: Recover/Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Light Screen It got hard towards the end. At least we have the ultimate Slowbro/Rhydon/Golem counter mon. =p Switch Chansey to Raish, give Snorlax Harden and Ice Beam, and put Surf on Starmie?
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 22, 2014 14:00:24 GMT -8
If Nidoking was Water/Ground instead of Poison/Ground, would it have been OU? I think so, as it would suddenly become an almost-perfect Chansey counter and lose most of its checks, but I'm not sure.
|
|
|
Post by marcoasd on Apr 22, 2014 14:18:24 GMT -8
If Nidoking was Water/Ground instead of Poison/Ground, would it have been OU? I think so (and I know it certainly would have been were it Ice/Ground), but I'm not sure. Well, you have a blatant W4 to Mega Drain Egg, but it's meant to be a counter in any case... Obviously better matchup vs Alakazam and Starmie too. Offensively, STAB water is worth something (OHKO) vs the rocks, while very difficult to be paralyzed. Ground means immunity to electric, so it forces Chansey to 1X Ice Beam, hitting with EQ (can't be countered). And Nidoking learns Counter itself. (Lovely Kiss with tradebacks for even more dirt) No question for me.
|
|
Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
|
Post by Isa on Apr 22, 2014 14:45:50 GMT -8
Why specifically Nidoking? Most BLs would be OU (or at least much better) if they could get Water/Ground with one type change, or so it feels.
or maybe i am just too tired
|
|
|
Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 22, 2014 16:38:49 GMT -8
Why specifically Nidoking? Most BLs would be OU (or at least much better) if they could get Water/Ground with one type change, or so it feels. or maybe i am just too tired Because Nidoking has a niche already (fast Ground with decently-powered BlizzBolt) and its main issue is its horrifically bad defensive typing; that is, its weaknesses to the two most common special types (Ice and Psychic) along with the second-most-common physical type (Ground). I can't think of much else that would be improved that much by a single type change without totally redefining its role. Nidoking also has Water move access (and Blizzard) already, making it a more natural thing to wonder about than most of the other Grounds and Waters. The only Waters to get Earthquake are Blastoise, Poliwrath and Slowbro, and the only other Ground to get Surf is Rhydon; Slowbro and Rhydon both like their secondary typings already (Slowbro wouldn't be nearly as good without Ice/Psychic resistance even if it did lose the Electric weakness, and Rhydon is largely defined by resisting Normal and Flying). I guess Poliwrath is in something of the same boat as Nidoking, though.
|
|
|
Post by CrapAtRBY on Apr 22, 2014 19:59:01 GMT -8
If Will-o-wisp existed in Gen 1 and had good distribution, would it change the metagame at all. Would it become even more specialist centrist, would the risk of getting a burnt Starmie, Chansey, Alakazam etc... outweigh the chance to cripple Tauros and the rocks?
|
|