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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 22, 2014 21:09:57 GMT -8
If Will-o-wisp existed in Gen 1 and had good distribution, would it change the metagame at all. Would it become even more specialist centrist, would the risk of getting a burnt Starmie, Chansey, Alakazam etc... outweigh the chance to cripple Tauros and the rocks? The only RBY Pokemon that received WoW when it was first introduced in Gen 3 were Gengar, Ninetales, and Weezing; as Alakazam switches easily into Gengar, and Starmie into Ninetales, they wouldn't get much use of the move, while Weezing could use it but would suck anyway in OU because lolmonoPoison. In later gens, the rest of the Fire-types got the move, as did Mewtwo and Mew; all the Fire-types are still walled by Starmie so no, while one of Mewtwo's best switch-ins (and Mew's ONLY switch-in) is Mewtwo itself, and Mewtwo's even worse to burn than Starmie and Alakazam as it has Amnesia and can therefore destroy your entire team right there instead of simply becoming indestructible. In lower tiers, however, it's excellent, and Weezing and the Fires would almost always use it. It totally disables any physical Pokemon, and puts specialists on a timer (or forces them to Rest earlier, if they have Rest). The only Recover users in lower tiers are Kadabra, Staryu, and Porygon; all three are fragile enough that burning them isn't as much of a problem as burning Starmie or Reflect Alakazam in OU.
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Post by CrapAtRBY on Apr 22, 2014 21:31:59 GMT -8
What if it had the same distribution as Thunder Wave?
I guess what I'm really asking is, if burn status could be spread in OU as readily as paralysis is, how would that affect things?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 22, 2014 22:21:44 GMT -8
What if it had the same distribution as Thunder Wave? I guess what I'm really asking is, if burn status could be spread in OU as readily as paralysis is, how would that affect things? Zapdos would always use it. Apart from that there isn't much that can stop both Starmie and Alakazam from switching in, since very few of the physicals can 2HKO a burned Starmie reliably (Golem, Rhydon, and Persian; Golem and Rhydon are potentially OHKOed and Persian still loses to burned Thunder Wave Starmie since Slash is already a crit) and none of the specials can 2HKO a burned Alakazam besides Articuno (which can't get past burned Starmie, and risks being stalled out by burned Alakazam). The only other things with enough mixed power to really not care about either are Body Slam/Thunderbolt Dragonite and Swords Dance Victreebel, and Victreebel gets Sleep Powder so there isn't much contest there. You would see it on a few things, though. Despite the risk of burning Mie or Zam, Chansey would still love it to deter physical attackers, and Articuno might want it to put Lapras on a timer (it's not like it's got a big movepool). Wrappers would also absolutely love it, because they can abuse it for serious damage; Dragonite and Victreebel are probably a bit short on moveslots, though a team built around a Nite sweep would probably want to spread burn with other things as well. Of course, burning a Wrapper renders it totally worthless, so you'd see it on some of the things that invite in Wrappers - then again, there aren't too many of those to begin with.
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ddx2
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Post by ddx2 on Apr 24, 2014 5:09:13 GMT -8
So last meta. We've all seen in the pokemon world how no-one, aside from Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Rival use TMs, but they'll only use it once and on their main pokemon. What if it was the same for us? What if No TMs existed? Or only one was permitted? (Yellow and event attacks are iffy in my mind, but only Raichu and Golduck are really affected by it anyway).
Psychics still dominate, and I can see Articuno, Zapdos, Alakazam, and Slowbro being used more often and everywhere. But Chansey, Tauros and Rhydon take a backseat. In fact quite a bit of the OUs go down, and others go up. It looks like aside from the psychics, all the special types will see increased play. Dugtrio, Dragonite, Jynx, Golem, Gengar, and Dodrio also look interesting, but I don't see any pure normal types every being worth it to be used.
Edit: Actually I just realized non of the core 4 are used. Chansey, Snorlax, Tauros, Exeggutor. Maybe Snorlax and Exeggutor a bit...but they without some of their signature moves they can't do as much as they'd like. Snorlax is now walled by Gengar and Golem, Exeggutor everything that resists grass attacks.
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Post by cheese on Apr 24, 2014 5:24:20 GMT -8
Snorlax would still definitely be used. It gets Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Amnesia, Rest... admittedly it loses a lot of coverage, but so does everything. Maybe Persian too, considering it still gets Slash, which is the main reason to use it.
To add to your list, I think Golem and Lapras are both decent choices (Golem gets Earthquake and Explosion, Lapras gets Ice Beam, Confuse Ray, Body Slam and Sing). I haven't had a proper look through what each pokemon gets so I'm sure there's loads of possibilities here.
I think generally the game would see a lot more switching pokemon, due to the lack of coverage that each pokemon gets.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 24, 2014 5:31:33 GMT -8
So last meta. We've all seen in the pokemon world how no-one, aside from Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Rival use TMs, but they'll only use it once and on their main pokemon. What if it was the same for us? What if No TMs existed? Or only one was permitted? (Yellow and event attacks are iffy in my mind, but only Raichu and Golduck are really affected by it anyway). Psychics still dominate, and I can see Articuno, Zapdos, Alakazam, and Slowbro being used more often and everywhere. But Chansey, Tauros and Rhydon take a backseat. In fact quite a bit of the OUs go down, and others go up. It looks like aside from the psychics, all the special types will see increased play. Dugtrio, Dragonite, Jynx, Golem, Gengar, and Dodrio also look interesting, but I don't see any pure normal types every being worth it to be used. Edit: Actually I just realized non of the core 4 are used. Chansey, Snorlax, Tauros, Exeggutor. Maybe Snorlax and Exeggutor a bit...but they without some of their signature moves they can't do as much as they'd like. Snorlax is now walled by Gengar and Golem, Exeggutor everything that resists grass attacks. No HMs as well? Or just no TMs? Anyway Golem usage goes up 500% since it now walls everything that relies on SE coverage and it keeps Earthquake and Explosion, and Snorlax is on every team because Body Slam/Harden/Amnesia/Rest. But the biggest winner is obviously Zam which obliterates absolutely everything with the Gary Zam set (Psychic/Psybeam/Reflect/Recover). If HMs are allowed Dragonite has its full set as well (it learns Hyper Beam by level-up), and without Thunder Wave and Ice moves everywhere it's horrifically powerful. Arty and Zapdos are good, but remember that lack of Thunderbolt does hurt Zapdos' reliability, and it's missing Thunder Wave as well. Slowbro sucks because No Rest.
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ddx2
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Post by ddx2 on Apr 24, 2014 6:19:06 GMT -8
True, but I figured it had easier access to setup Amnesia. I know it's still slow, but it can still be used as a potential sweeper after say Snorlax's body slams, Dragons T-Waves, and Jolteon/other electric.
and no, if we do put in HMs, obviously all the water-types (plus others) would super-benefit from having it. The only accurate elemntal attacks at the end would be Psychic and Flamethrower. Also, I do see that Golem walls a lot, but it doesn't mean water or grass types which are usually faster won't be around. Razor Leaf Vensaur, Kingler can move in with Crabhammer (plus it has Stomp, and the potential guillotine depending on if wrap/OHKO moves are banned or not).
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 29, 2014 0:30:49 GMT -8
If Magneton got Blizzard, what tier would it be?
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Post by marcoasd on Apr 29, 2014 3:04:38 GMT -8
If Magneton got Blizzard, what tier would it be? It lacks the stats and the moves to hurt the special stallers, but once those are gone, BlizzBolt+TWave and good defenses can hurt a lot of things, including Exeggutor. In BL I don't know the calcs vs Graveler, Kangaskhan's EQ and vs Nidoking, but I suppose that the latter would be the only ground type that can compete with it. Magneton could use Rest well in BL. I'd say bottom OU/BL, while the lack of Explosion is the really thing that hurts its chances the most for OU.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Apr 29, 2014 3:15:45 GMT -8
True, but I figured it had easier access to setup Amnesia. I know it's still slow, but it can still be used as a potential sweeper after say Snorlax's body slams, Dragons T-Waves, and Jolteon/other electric. and no, if we do put in HMs, obviously all the water-types (plus others) would super-benefit from having it. The only accurate elemntal attacks at the end would be Psychic and Flamethrower. Also, I do see that Golem walls a lot, but it doesn't mean water or grass types which are usually faster won't be around. Razor Leaf Vensaur, Kingler can move in with Crabhammer (plus it has Stomp, and the potential guillotine depending on if wrap/OHKO moves are banned or not). Lots of Waters learn Hydro Pump naturally - in fact, the only ones that don't get a move of Surf power or greater are Slowbro, Dewgong, and Seaking, all of which aren't great anyway (Slowbro because no Rest, and the other two just plain suck). No, it's the non-Waters that really benefit from Surf - the big ones being Dragonite, Kangaskhan, Snorlax, and in this situation, Mew. Yes, Mew - without its TM learnset it'd be unbanned. The Ice-types all learn Ice Beam or Blizzard naturally, too (both, in Articuno's case). Does make Articuno actually competitive with Lapras, though, since Lapras doesn't get Blizzard naturally. Venusaur is still a noob's choice; Victreebel outclasses Venusaur even more without TMs, because Venusaur now can't do anything but Sleep Powder/Razor Leaf/filler whereas Victreebel still has Stun Spore and Wrap. Without TMs I think Victreebel actually becomes the best Grass-type around since Egg can't boom or use its STAB (well, apart from SolarBeam, lol).
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Post by cheese on Apr 29, 2014 5:55:46 GMT -8
Magneton would OU easily if it got Blizzard and Explosion. With just bolt beam it's kinda stuck against Chansey, basically making it an inferior Starmie with its lack of speed and Recovery (and generally inferior typing, although it is more powerful). Blizzard also doesn't quite OHKO the rocks, meaning that it's want to avoid paralysis too.
I think it'd get a bit of niche "fun" OU play, but nothing more.
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Post by cheese on Apr 29, 2014 5:57:41 GMT -8
Magneton would OU easily if it got Blizzard and Explosion. With just bolt beam it's kinda stuck against Chansey, basically making it an inferior Starmie with its lack of speed and Recovery (and generally inferior typing, although it is more powerful). Blizzard also doesn't quite OHKO the rocks, meaning that it's want to avoid paralysis too.
I think it'd get a bit of niche "fun" OU play, but nothing more.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jul 28, 2014 19:10:28 GMT -8
What moves would Aerodactyl need to be good as an attacker? Obviously Drill Peck would be a godsend, and I'm thinking it'd want either Earthquake (3HKO), Blizzard (2HKO) or Hydro Pump (OHKO) for GolDon. What else?
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Isa
Member
FOREVER SECOND
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Post by Isa on Jul 29, 2014 1:00:45 GMT -8
Drill Peck for physical STAB is a must. Earthquake gives coverage versus Jolteon and Gengar. Blizzard isn't that needed - Drill Peck hits Egg, and if you wanna hit Flying types, request a STAB Rock Slide instead.
finally, Swords Dance would be superb.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jul 29, 2014 3:43:53 GMT -8
Drill Peck for physical STAB is a must. Earthquake gives coverage versus Jolteon and Gengar. Blizzard isn't that needed - Drill Peck hits Egg, and if you wanna hit Flying types, request a STAB Rock Slide instead. finally, Swords Dance would be superb. Yeah, Swords Dance/Drill Peck/Earthquake/Rock Slide Aerodactyl would be brutal to face. I think DP/EQ/RS/Hydro Pump might make OU, too. It'd certainly rocket it out of NU.
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Post by Raish on Aug 15, 2014 19:54:41 GMT -8
I'd be interested in trying out a hyper aggressive metagame where everyone's HP EVs were set to the minimum. I wonder if it would just devolve into revenge kill after revenge kill or if defensive plays could still have meaning with attacks hitting so much harder. Would Chansey still be able to wall Starmie or would Starmie go unchecked? Or would Starmie even be used because it loses its status as the physically bulky recover user. Are there any mons that aren't that used right now that would see a lot more usage? I'm guessing Persian's popularity would rise because slash would take out so much more, and that speed would be more meaningful.
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Post by jorgen on Aug 15, 2014 22:12:19 GMT -8
I feel like, if anything, that would just buff Chansey, who would be hurt least by such a rule. This would act to make the game less fast-paced, not more.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Aug 16, 2014 1:23:40 GMT -8
jorgen: Blissey got much better in ADV largely as a result of the EV split hurting it less than more balanced 'mons. Many of the attackers in GSC (Marowak, for instance) don't work in ADV because they can't just generically survive the way they could in GSC. Is ADV slower than GSC? No. Yes, Chansey would lose less bulk compared to everything else and thus become better, but it still loses survivability, which means less brazenness in switching in on specials and easier revenge-kills. Zam and Starmie stop being walls. Not sure whether they actually get worse, though, since their speed potentially makes them stronger as sweepers to make up for it. Chansey's still a problem, though. Dugtrio probably gets less useless since its Speed means more.
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Isa
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FOREVER SECOND
Posts: 1,479
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Post by Isa on Aug 16, 2014 3:06:24 GMT -8
Snorlax reigns supreme imo, OHKOs everything not resisting with boom.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Aug 16, 2014 5:02:30 GMT -8
Snorlax reigns supreme imo, OHKOs everything not resisting with boom. Nah, not quite. The bulky Waters can still sometimes survive. Cloyster even guarantees it, and it's the hardest hit by the HP nerf. Another Snorlax can sometimes survive, too.
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Post by magic9mushroom on Sept 10, 2014 18:40:30 GMT -8
How broken would Snorlax have been with 110 base Special? As good as Mew? As good as Mewtwo?
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Post by cheese on Sept 11, 2014 13:11:21 GMT -8
It's hard to say because it would completely change the metagame. Reflect Lax would be a complete tank. Snorlax gets such attack variety too.
He wouldn't be Mewtwo level because of the low speed and no way to boost its STAB attacks, but a ban from OU would be likely because he'd just be so tricky to KO and so unpredictable. It's already said that Lax has no real counter, and that's without him switching into Thunderbolts and Psychics whenever he pleases.
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Post by froggy25 on Sept 11, 2014 22:18:14 GMT -8
It would 2HKO Cloyster and 3HKO Articuno / Lapras with Thunderbolt.
And Amnesia would likely become the standard set. That or Reflect for an invincible Snorlax as you said.
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Post by cheese on Oct 15, 2014 9:18:10 GMT -8
If you could play a three way match of pokemon, who would win between Charizard, Venusaur and Blatsoise?
Sleep clause is in place with no TMs allowed. It works in a turn based manner (Charizard first as he's the fastest) and each turn you get to choose who to attack so Charizard could attack either Venusaur or Blastoise). Would it make a difference if Fire Spin were banned?
Sorry for the randomness of the question!
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Post by jorgen on Oct 15, 2014 17:58:45 GMT -8
Fire Spin or no, I think Charizard wins that 3-way most often. This is because Blastoise needs to Blizzard Venu immediately to even have a chance, thereby forcing Venusaur to focus on Blastoise after sleeping the Zard (if it even chooses to do that on turn 1). Thus, Zard's best turn 1 play might actually be to Growl the Venusaur and watch the fireworks fly.
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Post by longfellow on Dec 14, 2014 1:13:53 GMT -8
I had this whole writeup about this scenario, but I was silly and didn't read about no TMs or sleep clause.
Anyway, I'll include everything I theorymonned because why not
NO SLEEP CLAUSE, TMS ALLOWED
Venusaur: Sleep Powder, Growth, Leech Seed, Mega Drain/Razor Leaf/Reflect/Rest Charizard: Swords Dance, Hyper Beam, some combination of Fire Spin/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Body Slam/Slash/Fly/Substitute Blastoise: Blizzard, Hydro Pump/Surf, some combination of Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Substitute/Reflect/Seismic Toss/Counter
Turn 1: Charizard uses Swords Dance Venusaur powders Charizard Blastoise blizzards/bslams Venusaur
Turn 2: Venusaur powders Blastoise
Turn 3: Venusaur buffs itself up with Growth, Leech Seed, Reflect, Mega Drain, etc.
Venusaur wins if Charizard has a long sleep or if Venusaur manages to guess Charizard's wakeup Charizard wins if it wakes up early or in some cases of it and Blastoise waking up on the same turn Blastoise wins if it gets a first turn freeze or if it wakes up with Charizard and if Charizard and Venusaur attack each other next turn
SLEEP CLAUSE, TMS ALLOWED
Venusaur: Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Substitute, Razor Leaf Charizard: Swords Dance, Hyper Beam, Fire Blast, Fire Spin/Flamethrower/Body Slam/Slash/Fly/Substitute Blastoise: Blizzard, Hydro Pump/Surf, Body Slam, Substitute/Reflect/Counter
Turn 1: Charizard uses Swords Dance Venusaur powders Charizard Blastoise blizzards/bslams Venusaur
Turn 2: Venusaur uses Razor Leaf Blastoise blizzards/bslams Venusaur
Turn 3: Venusaur uses Razor Leaf Blastoise is KOd
Venusaur wins if it can keep powdering Charizard on wakeup and finds the time for Leech Seed (and preferably Substitute) Charizard probably wins if it wakes up turn 3 or earlier, especially if Blastoise and Venusaur have already traded blows Blastoise wins upon first turn freeze and probably upon second turn freeze/para/CH
I actually don't think Fire Spin makes a huge difference here... against Blastoise for instance +2 Fly + Hyper Beam kills healthy Blastoise about half the time, so if Charizard is at full health (probably at least close to it, give or take a few Leech Seed turns), or if Blastoise has already taken damage, Fire Spin's likely to be unnecessary. Fire Spin can keep Venusaur immobile while destroying its Substitute, which prevents you from getting powdered again. In terms of actually doing damage though it's rather dismal—with Fire Spin and Leech Seed both active, Charizard takes more damage per turn than Venusaur. In most cases Fire Blast or Fly or Hyper Beam should be enough to win.
SLEEP CLAUSE, NO TMS
Venusaur: Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Growth, Razor Leaf Charizard: Flamethrower, Fire Spin, Slash, Growl Blastoise: Hydro Pump, Tail Whip, Bite, Bubble
Turn 1: Charizard flamethrowers Venusaur Venusaur powders Charizard Blastoise hydro pumps Venusaur
I do think Flamethrower on Venusaur is necessary, otherwise Venusaur sets up too easily and wins himself.
Turn 2: Venusaur Razor Leafs Blastoise....
and it basically turns back into Venusaur winning if its powders hit and it can Leech Seed, Charizard winning if the powders miss or it wakes up early, and Blastoise winning off hax (Flamethrower CH, in this case). Something like 50% Charizard 30% Venusaur 20% Blastoise.
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Post by piexplode on Dec 14, 2014 10:45:56 GMT -8
In the final scenario, if I were venusaur, I would focus on sleeping and then seeding on charizard, since it's such an exceptional matchup versus blastoise that it can afford to focus on beating charizard pretty much, and then seal the deal with blastoise. Therefore Blastoise wants to hax and attack venusaur as much as possible. Charizard does not want to beat venusaur straight up, since it then just loses to blastoise, so it wants to just threaten blastoise as much as it can before it goes to sleep.
The general idea is that you want to make sure that the pokemon you have a bad match up versus is the one that you try and KO second, since if you KO it first then you leave yourself in a losing matchup. Sleep, SD, Fire Spin all affect the match-up, which is an intricacy that should be delved in, but that's the main operating principle.
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Post by longfellow on Dec 14, 2014 12:00:59 GMT -8
Charizard can't afford to be that complacent about beating Venusaur though. Venusaur can win 1-on-1 just with Leech Seed + Sleep Powder as long as it doesn't miss. After a few Growths it can even withstand missing Sleep Powder and eating a few non-CH Flamethrowers.
Charizard loses both 1-on-1s if its opponents are healthy and wins them both more and more easily the lower they are in health (for instance, after one Razor Leaf, Blastoise is OHKOd by Slash). If Charizard ignores Venusaur on turn 1, it guarantees a losing endgame against a healthy Venusaur. If Charizard attacks Venusaur on turn 1, it brings Venusaur within reach of a 3HKO by Blastoise's Hydro Pump (3/4HKO by Bite), forcing Venusaur to remove Blastoise before setting up. This leaves Venusaur is at lower health and behind on Growths, which bodes very well for Charizard if it wakes up at the right time.
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Post by piexplode on Jun 15, 2015 12:34:35 GMT -8
Here's an interesting question. What would happen if Substitute blocked Sleep moves, but not Paralysis moves?
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Post by magic9mushroom on Jun 15, 2015 16:53:42 GMT -8
Here's an interesting question. What would happen if Substitute blocked Sleep moves, but not Paralysis moves? Do they still block Body Slam paralysis?
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