RBY Stream - what do you want to see?

[Isa]

Hey everybody!

So it's been a while since the latest news post. To make a reflection upon where we stand compared to six months ago, I think it's fair to say that we're more alive now than we were back then. We've also made some legit work, and by we, I mostly mean magic9mushroom, who mathed out Lapras versus paralyzed Chansey. Very helpful! It always makes me happy when we can reach new levels of exact information.
The tournament I hosted wasn't really a success since a lot of the matches took a lot of time and the grand finals were never played due to GGFan being banned. However, it was still interesting results-wise as marcoasd beat Crystal_ and I managed to beat M Dragon. The current tournament, Buy your own team, is so far successful as many players have joined our forums solely to play in the tour.


On to what I wanted to discuss:
Not long ago, Smogon had a stream where some top level GSC players discussed the metagame and took questions from the public, featuring Jorgen, borat and others. This got me thinking that we could do something similar here - maybe a different format (me solocasting, inviting Jorgen once again, letting everyone in, etc.), but the same principle. Some experienced players talk about the metagame and what's hot and not, the merits of Reflect Chansey or something.

Another idea I had is narrated battles. For those with good memory, I played last year vs. The Dude and made a war story out of it and posted it here. On Pokémon Online there's a thread where you can submit battles to be narrated and uploaded to their YouTube channel, and The Dude liked our battle so much that he sent that battle in. I narrated it and it is currently in the process of being edited by those who know how that works. In the narration I'm not very indepth, but I could easily be more indepth in future videos.

The real question is though - if this idea were to happen, what would you want to see? Would you watch a live stream of persons you don't know talk about a game that's almost old enough to drink alcohol, and if so, what should those persons talk about? Should games be played and narrated in real time?
Also, would you be interested in watching narrated battles if they were uploaded to YouTube?

Let me know your thoughts!

[allala]

I would  watch a live stream of persons you don't know talk about a game that's almost old enough to drink alcohol
It's a very good idea tbh and if you suceed at "advertising" it I hope many new players will come and try 1 gen too!

what should those persons talk about?

1. Teambuilduing /main pokes and some gimmick sets/choosing leads/game mechanics - If you expect a lot of "new-to-RBY" players
2. Or as you say "legit work" about "advanced" playing (para'd chansey vs lapras etc)

[piexplode]

Sounds awesome.
I'd enjoy sort of a smogcast type thing with like u, jorgen, marco etc. talking about like the tier, favouite sets etc.
Also more war stories and logs of battles, with comments between each turn explaining what each player is thinking (maybe get both players to work on it, I've seen it done before and it's amazing) as I find that can be very interesting and teach people a lot about the tier.
I like seeing how the tie is still growing..
I wonder if in like a century's time we could work out the one and only 'perfect' team and how to use it versus any other team and situation to provide the greatest chance of winning.
Fantasies, but fun.

I like what allala's saying
you probably want a bit of both. Stuff like mechanics is easy to find information about, but choosing your lead, teambuilding etc, there's less information out there for newer or older players even, so that would be better. Deeper delving into the game for the advanced players too could be seriously awesome, maybe dedicate like 50:50 to each, I'm sure everyone could find something useful about it, and storming ideas and opinions together is often very productive.

[marcoasd]

1. Teambuilduing /main pokes/choosing leads and some sets that can work as a surprise, not to mention "wrong" movesets that are commonly accepted.
2."advanced" playing (para'd chansey vs lapras etc), and that's the real deal: things that will never change (but this is mainly to m9m's will to eat maths, we can just ask him what to analyze)
3- Narrated battles from both past and present, but mainly real time.
I remember doing my first big upgrade reading an Isa vs magic9mushroom log. And I say, that reading a log is very difficult for a new rbyer. I find it difficult even now.

About Reflect Chansey (SToss/Twave)... it can't freeze... it lets Slowbro in more than ever, and allows Lapras to restloop. It suffers Confuse Ray, Alakazam and Psychic Starmie.
It has its merits vs ZAPDOS, non critting Tauros, Snorlax and Gol/Don. Basically, it's good against a lot of common things, while it's bad against others (less common things). The main drawback is it can't freeze (this happens every game...), and you rely on your own physicals to take out opponent's Chansey... so if your opponent can take physical attacks well, it's not that good.
Just like Reflect Zam, it shines in two cases: against noobs, and on Pokemon Showdown*. Combine the two things to have an almost automatic win.
It's a viable option, mostly a BORING one.

*On PS, Critical Hits don't ignore Reflect (due to a terrible bug)

[Lutra]

I think something similar to the GSC one for RBY would be great but with someone acting as a presenter to introduce the whole thing, conclude it and control who talks when.

[cheese]

Yeah, I'd also like to have someone controlling the flow of the conversation.

Perhaps there could be debates where people could argue different things (e.g. one person argues Light Screen is Zapdos' best move, another argues Agility, another argues Reflect).

The idea of debating common moves on pokemon that you personally wouldn't use seems interesting too.

I think it is a good idea for people participating to know the questions beforehand too, so that they can properly prepare answers.

[Isa]

That leads to the question: Who would you guys like to see on the stream, and who wants to be there? =p

[marcoasd]

May 14, 2014 7:00:44 GMT -8 Isa said:

That leads to the question: Who would you guys like to see on the stream, and who wants to be there? =p

It will be mostly you, Jorgen and me answering questions, with m9m mathing the hell out of RBY.
Btw he's right on Slowbro using Psychic, as Surf was meant to hit Mew and Mewtwo.

[cheese]

May 14, 2014 7:00:44 GMT -8 Isa said:

That leads to the question: Who would you guys like to see on the stream, and who wants to be there? =p

I honestly don't really mind who it is, as long as they know how to play RBY (which is basically everyone here).
What I do want though is people who are prepared and people who know what the questions are going to be (although going off on a tangent is of course acceptable). I think this is more important than having someone slightly more experienced.

[kid]

I think that there definitely should be an RBY Stream.

Some talking points could be:
*"Best lead" (what about wrap team lead?)
*trying to get chansey para'd vs another person who also wants there chansey para'd. Or avoiding a chansey freeze war 50-50 gamble, while still gaining an edge.
*Freeze clause and wrap / should it exist in the meta yes/no
*Golem or Rhydon (differences, viability) (i'm a golem guy)
*Snorlax sets
*starmie sets
*How much can you possibly deviate from the standard OU and still have a viable team?
*How many wrappers can a wrap team have and still be Viable? (what would that team consist of?) (most wrap teams i've seen/used have a major zapdos, or tbolt lapras/starmie, and/or gengar weakness)
*Gengar (very versatile) - Can be used as a lead, explodes, Immune to normal, absorbs explosions / blocks hyper beams, but is also weak to everything that does anything important.
*Alakazam 4th move slot move
*Differences between Showdown and PO
*How much does "luck" play a role in the outcome of a match?

I'll add more later (maybe)

[marcoasd]

May 15, 2014 1:24:48 GMT -8 kid said:

I think that there definitely should be an RBY Stream.

Some talking points could be:
*"Best lead" (what about wrap team lead?)
*trying to get chansey para'd vs another person who also wants there chansey para'd. Or avoiding a chansey freeze war 50-50 gamble, while still gaining an edge.
*Freeze clause and wrap / should it exist in the meta yes/no
*Golem or Rhydon (differences, viability) (i'm a golem guy)
*Snorlax sets
*starmie sets
*How much can you possibly deviate from the standard OU and still have a viable team?
*How many wrappers can a wrap team have and still be Viable? (what would that team consist of?) (most wrap teams i've seen/used have a major zapdos, or tbolt lapras/starmie, and/or gengar weakness)
*Gengar (very versatile) - Can be used as a lead, explodes, Immune to normal, absorbs explosions / blocks hyper beams, but is also weak to everything that does anything important.
*Alakazam 4th move slot move
*Differences between Showdown and PO
*How much does "luck" play a role in the outcome of a match?

I'll add more later (maybe)

So, question already started ^^
Quickly, I'd say: 1)Every lead has its risks. The beginning of a game is based on mindgames, so you never know. The leads are Starmie, Alakazam, Gengar and Jynx. Starmie is imo the best lead overall, but I hate to start paralyzing something before sleeping something. Gengar is fine, and it's a good lead for a wrap team, as it can use Psychic and hit enemy Gengar (usually Psychic is not that good for Gar, that loves Tbolt and Night Shade).

2) The most common way to avoid Chansey freeze wars is to paralyze it, and then use Snorlax (or use chain switches dodging BoltBeam with Exeggutor/GolDon and Lapras/Starmie/Cloyster. Confuse Ray can help, even on its own: you use it and then switch back to Chansey to go for the freeze).

3) Two freezes is a bit too hard to deal with. Wrap should be allowed because it's not OP, it's just that most people don't know how to play against it. It's just like asking to ban Slowbro or Zapdos.

4) Golem has Explosion, it's blatant. It wins the MU with Rhydon due to higher speed. Rhydon does significant more damage with Rock Slide vs Exeggutor and paralyzed Lapras (behind a Substitute). EQ is 2HKO vs Chansey, sometimes 2HKO vs Starmie and often 3HKO vs Slowbro.
Use Golem only if you know exactly when to boom.

5) Snorlax sets have been already mentioned in another discussion, I'd say Body Slam/ Earthquake/ Selfdestruct and one of Hyper Beam, Counter or Surf. Earthquake is IMO needed against Counter Chansey, while is obvious vs Gengar.
Body Slam/Earthquake/Reflect/Rest is arguabily the best Rest set.

6) Starmie is Psychic/Blizzard/Thunder Wave/Recover as a lead. I think it should be used as a lead (like Alakazam), but if it's not, the standard is Blizzard/Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/Recover.

7) I think you can deviate a lot from a standard team and still win, but you won't do it as consistently (win vs every opponent, keep winning as the opponent knows your team...).

8) The best wrappers are Cloyster and Victrebeel. This has already been discussed, I don't like Dnite at all. Obviously Gengar, Lapras and Zapdos too are tough to go against.

9) Gengar is the most difficult piece to use, but can work.

10) I don't like to use Alakazam, but imo it should always use Reflect. As a lead, they say SToss is good to damage Exeggutor, and that's true.

11) Showdown sucks as it's bugged on Reflect (CHs don't ignore it) and Counter (it doesn't work properly, don't remember very well when).

12) Luck is obviously very important, but your moves are even more.

[jorgen]

Narrating games real-time is something for a solo streamer to be doing. Not befitting of a "panel"-style cast, although that's not to say it might not actually be better to do.

I'd be down to participate, but I don't have too much input on the content of such a stream. How esoteric we get depends on whether we want to cater to the RBY people or to your average Smogon/PO Joe. Odds are we wanna target the latter, so a segment on what characterizes RBY and how it's misconceived would be good, although judging by the thread so far I'm not 100% sure who it is we actually are trying to cater to.

Who would stream if this were a thing? When would it happen? What would the Twitch channel be? Would we be able to get the word out to make it worth... streaming? Until this crosses the threshold and goes from "hey this would be cool" to an actual scheduled thing, it's hard for me to get too excited about it.

[Isa]

I think the issue in trying to access the overall public is that I don't know how many would be interested - I'd rather see something more indepth for the ones already playing. I'm not opposed to something more basic, but it'd require for us to have a way to spread this to others. Specifically because of that issue, I think it'd be more fun to just target the already existing audience.

All of this has been very vague from my side because I want to see the interest from the ones most likely to watch (2K10 members and others already playing RBY) - I won't claim to know what's on demand.

I'm not gonna lie, this was mostly a fun idea from my part but I do think it'd be a cool way to share information.


Maybe I'll do some solocasts narrating games live for starters. I've been streaming my POWC games to Twitch but I haven't informed anyone of the actual stream (to prevent sniping), instead the target audience has been my group of real life friends. I have the tools required to do some kind of informational stream, and I think that it'd give something.

[marcoasd]

I think using twitch is a good idea. I support the idea of targeting new people.

[Isa]

How do we target new people though? =p

[Isa]

Maybe the proper format for reaching out would be a recorded, well-planned video that can be shown easily to others, rather than a stream?

[piexplode]

Maybe roll this out into 2 ideas
1] a video or eventually even series of videos to introduce people to RBY. Should be fairly straightforward, probably don't make it too lengthy.

2] A live stream or recorded video, whichever seems to make more sense, which is just aimed at the current RBY players. Probably have marco+jorgen+isa (+m9m? :3) talking; discussing stuff like kid was talking about sounds like a good start, some stuff is more age-old question-y stuff like rhylem vs goldon; the thing I've noticed is even though you three are great RBY players your opinions on a lot of pokemon and playing is very different quite a lot of the time. And discussing m9m's calcs, and how we move forward with that and what that means could be anice way to finish it off for like the last 10 minutes or so maybe?

[piexplode]

oh a double post but to dress isa's first of his double posts; maybe we could have that new video made and then get it put into the news bit on the side when you log onto showdown okay so showdown has some issues as a simulator but if it stimulates the player-base a bit more, then maybe there will be more interest in fixing the glitches, so win-win, glitches eventually fixed, playerbase expanded. Maybe have the RBY2K10 logo in a corner in a video too so that people come find this place, even if you don't mention it in the video

[marcoasd]

Can't we find new people from Twitch?

May 16, 2014 7:33:02 GMT -8 piexplode said:

Maybe roll this out into 2 ideas
1] a video or eventually even series of videos to introduce people to RBY. Should be fairly straightforward, probably don't make it too lengthy.

2] A live stream or recorded video, whichever seems to make more sense, which is just aimed at the current RBY players. Probably have marco+jorgen+isa (+m9m? :3) talking; discussing stuff like kid was talking about sounds like a good start, some stuff is more age-old question-y stuff like rhylem vs goldon; the thing I've noticed is even though you three are great RBY players your opinions on a lot of pokemon and playing is very different quite a lot of the time. And discussing m9m's calcs, and how we move forward with that and what that means could be anice way to finish it off for like the last 10 minutes or so maybe?

Quote.
About different opinions, those happen most of the time because we use different teams. So, in the end, it's fine if we specify the context.

[piexplode]

Still, I think you three do all think pretty differently sometimes. Like, you listed that there's only 4 leads, whereas I see Isa using Jolteon lead sometimes, and I'm aware hypno/eggy are viable as leads too. Obviously it depends on the team how they work. JUst gonna say as a newbie there's really not much information on how to choose your leads, how they interact, etc.

[jorgen]

May 16, 2014 4:26:17 GMT -8 Isa said:

Maybe the proper format for reaching out would be a recorded, well-planned video that can be shown easily to others, rather than a stream?

Eh, I don't think so. A stream is an event that people can get hyped over even if the overall quality is meh, it's just a matter of letting people know it's happening. A "planned" video, on the other hand, needs to leap over a higher bar, probably have a better overarching concept than just "dudes talking about RBY", and has the risk of coming across as stilted and (if we don't have the proper equipment) just plain bad.

[Isa]

In my head an introductory video would have very clear talking goals, and is ran by only one person. That'd ease things up with regards to format etc.

[piexplode]

I think splitting therse ideas up into separate concepts sounds pretty neat.
I mean u can have the Stream which is the thing to Hype over,
The introductoy video to maybe try and get put into the news on PS,
and maybe an advanced but more planned video. Maybe something about the goals of us atm as RBY players, explaining the mathing out, the progress etc. etc.

[Isa]

pastebin.com/TjA7KYsX

So this makes me interested in creating that video.

[piexplode]

It will be totally worth it.

Edit: Do u think u should open a new thread to discuss exactly what to include in the introductory video? And also how long should it be, and just 1, or a series. lots of options and ways to go about it. I'm interested to see how it turns out, and how it affects the popularity of the tier.

[moxieinfinite]

we need ggfan on this stream LOL

[Dre]

I'd be interested in this, I'm just not sure how many others would be.

[CrapAtRBY]

Introductory video would definitely be good.

Video could go something like this, probably stuff i've not though of

- Explanation of the mechanical differences in Gen 1, Crits, Freeze, Sleep, Counter etc... and the minor ones like Toxic mentioned in passing. Wrap should probably be confined to it's own section.
- Maybe explain some common misconceptions of RBY. I.e. "it's a hax tier"
- Common threats and what they do, not sure how far down the list you'd go with this, There's the obvious compulsory ones; Mandatory 4, Rocks, Zam/Starmie, Jynx, probably Lapras, Slowbro, Zapdos, Gengar. Don't know if it would be worth going in to Articuno/Jolteon territory 
- (Sleep) leads and matchups thereof 
- Team building. Goign througha standard team like this and explaining why it's standard.
- Maybe a section on Wrap, it's uncommon enough on PO that I don't think an in depth detailing of how wrap and non-wrap teams differ
- Explain why people  should be playing on PO, if Showdown ever implement RBY correctly annotations are easy enough to add on youtube (I'm assuming this would be on Youtube?)
- End Summary on why RBY is fun to play

[piexplode]

I agree with most of that but DO NOT mention about the PO vs PS since okay whilst PO is the better sim there's a shot of having it in the news (if you read the pastebin) on showdown.. maybe mention the issues with the showdown simulator in passing (like say explaining reflect mechanics and mentioning that bug on PS). We want to increase the popularity of the tier, even if that means that our best way to get people involves them playing a bit of a buggy beta metagame. They finally have debugged completely gen 4, just 1-3 left, and if we get people more interested in playing them then the programmers are likely to take more of an interest in fixing them.

Either way, point is you're trying to encourage players, and a lot of the players we might be encouraging would be on PS, so it's easier to give PO and quick mention and when relevant bugs come up discussing mechanics just mention that it's bugged on PS but don't make a big thing of it. I know the reflect bug is kinda crucial, the other ones are relatively minor in comparison (like an unprogrammed Mirror Move for example).