Gengar-as-a-Lead Discussion

[t3h Icy]

I think most players can agree that Gengar is the most realistic lead, being a Ghost type, the fastest Sleeper and can't be OHKO'd by anything faster than Gengar, and usually the counter is Alakazam, but are there other ways?

Alakazam's Psychic does a maximum of 239 damage (or 74%), and a critical hit will definitely take out Gengar, which happens about 23.4% of the time. However, Alakazam is easy to switch against, so Alakazam may be better off using Thunder Wave anyway.

Dugtrio is another possibility, having the same critical hit chance as Alakazam, but doing significantly more damage with a maximum of 304 (or 94%), but outside of attacking Gengar, Dugtrio is often just a poorer Golem in terms of beating Gengar, except being able to stand up against Water and Grass attacks slightly better. Realistically, a Dugtrio lead isn't very viable, and Exeggutor can switch in against it.

Another idea I've been thinking of is Sandslash. Similar to Dugtrio, except Sandslash can use Swords Dance and is another alternative to Golem and Rhydon, but Sandslash is capable of taking out Gengar in one hit (but not guaranteed), while Gengar can't hit Sandslash hard with Mega Drain like Rhydon and Golem. However, Sandslash is slower, but the risk of missing with Hypnosis may not be worth it. Using this, Sandslash could use Swords Dance instead for the switch. Still though, Sandslash isn't exactly the toughest opponent, even with Swords Dance used, but it can at least survive all common attacks (except for Starmie's Surf).

Gengar itself could also be modified to better inflict sleep with the help of Confuse Ray.

When confused, Gengar has a 30% chance to put the opponent to sleep (50% of 60%), but the extra turn may result in your Gengar still being put to sleep. Here's all the possibilities:

Without Confuse Ray #1

Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Hypnosis
Success Rate = 24%

Without Confuse Ray #2

You use Hypnosis
Opponent uses Hypnosis
Success Rate = 60%

Without Confuse Ray Success Rate = 42% (the extra chance that's missing is when you both miss (a 16% chance))

With Confuse Ray #1

Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Confuse Ray
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Hypnosis
Success Rate = 16.8%

With Confuse Ray #2

You use Confuse Ray
Opponent uses Hypnosis
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Hypnosis
Success Rate = 29.4%

With Confuse Ray #3

Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Confuse Ray
You use Hypnosis
Opponent uses Hypnosis
Success Rate = 24%

With Confuse Ray #4

You use Confuse Ray
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Hypnosis
Opponent uses Hypnosis
Success Rate = 42%

With Confuse Ray Success Rate = 28.05%

So ultimately, confusing Gengar as a tactic in a Sleep War decreases your chance to put Gengar to sleep significantly. For this specifically, I'd strongly recommend against Confuse Ray, but of course, Confuse Ray can be used at other times for other reasons.

So ultimately, countering Gengar lead is best done with your own. Fun stuff.

[WaterWizard]

Well, a nice, slightly patchy analysis.

I disagree with you on a few points.

a) In the present metagame, Alakazam is a terrible lead. He screams "send out Eggy for a guaranteed sleep" or "Get your Chansey paralyzed on the first turn!" Early Alakazam is quite useless as special falls can be negated by switching between Eggy/Chansey/Starmie/Alakazam/Slowbro.

b) In my opinion, Sandslash is not viable in OU. Perhaps you can prove me wrong in some casual battling, but for now I think that would be a total waste of a slot. He would induce countless Eggy switch-ins, which inevitably lead to Chansey getting blow up on. Furthermore, why use Sandslash to 1hko Gengar when Golem can do the same and is much more useful in the rest of the battle?

c) Dugtrio is not "just a poorer Golem." He functions completely differently. Dugtrio outspeeds Persian, Gengar, Starmie, and Tauros, and ties Alakazam, making him a very useful sweeper/revenge killer. I have never used my Dugtrio in a similar manner as Golem, except when a player uses BL Jolteon. Zapdos can 2-3 hit KO Dugtrio with drill peck, so there're really no comparison to Golem.

However, I will agree with you that confuse-ray Gengar is just idiocy.

[t3h Icy]

The difference between Sandslash and Golem against Gengar is thr Rock-type since Gengar usually has Mega Drain, though it still can't kill Golem, it leaves a dent in his HP.

Also I guess I wasn't very clear but Dugtrio is poorer in terms of killing Gengar, but I do agree with the rest.

[Nerd]

Sandslash survives starmie's surf 100% of the time (barring a critical), and IMO is usable in standard play if you don't mind taking a turn to set up. It can survive a hit from almost anything and after a swords dance it does quite a lot of damage to everything. In terms of a lead, however, I would advise against it; taking less damage from mega drain is irrelevant if the opponent is using hypnosis and it dies to the other leads (jynx, exeggutor, etc). Sandslash is usable, just not as a lead.

Because Gengar is the most used lead, you have to come up with a counter. You could use something that is slower than gengar but OHKOs if hypnosis misses (e.g. golem), use a gengar of your own, or something faster. Alakazam gets walled easily, and dugtrio isn't particularly good (though maybe if OHKOs were allowed...). Starmie suffers the same problems as Alakazam and jolteon isn't really great either, so those aren't used. The problem with leading golem is that it is destroyed by non-gengar leads (same as sandslash), so RBY matches have become gengar vs gengar starts.

[WaterWizard]

so sandslash survives Starmie's first surf 75% of the time with CH chance. that's pretty lame considering any damage sandslash does can be recovered off. If Sandslash isn't useful as a lead (which you've stated) then for what is he useful? he is useless unless Eggy/Starmie/Articuno/Lapras/Slowbro are dead. But then, once those pokes are dead, Golem hits harder anyway.

the only advantage is not being doubly weak to megadrain (although it still 2hkos him, just like golem, so the advantage is negated), but who would keep out a ground type against eggy anyway?

sandslash is totally outclassed by tauros, persian, golem, dodrio, and even dugtrio. no point in using him unless you're fighting a mono-electric team.

[Nerd]

Like you said earlier, some pokemon have different roles. None of the pokemon you mentioned above can learn swords dance; sandslash is usable because with a swords dance he might be able to sweep a team late game. 65 base speed is enough to outspeed lapras and other common threats, and sandslash's electric immunity allows it oppritunity to switch in and to avoid paralysis from thunder wave. The fact that it survives a starmie's surf is just evidence that its defences are enough to set up. If you want to use a swords dancer, Sandslash is a great choice for these reasons.
I'm not saying that Sandslash should be used often and I recognize that in most situations golem is better, I'm just suggesting that you should consider Sandslash for your team if you want to fill this niche.

[WaterWizard]

there's a nice niche for sword-dancing Beedril, too.

[posthuman]

Wow, you guys are pretty harsh to each other.

Sandslash might be situational, but he can do well once in awhile. He owns late game if he has time to setup and if everything is paralyzed. Sure those are big ifs, but it can happen.

He's certainly better than Beedrill.

[t3h Icy]

The difference with Beedrill though is that Beedrill can still be walled out. If you use the standard set with Swords Dance, Agility, Twineedle and Hyper Beam, Golem can still switch in. If Mega Drain replaces Hyper Beam, well, Golem can still take him, and Beedrill can't finish off Pokemon as easily.

Personally, I dislike Pokemon that need to be setup; I prefer using ones that are beast as they come. The only difference though is that Pokemon that successfully setup are generally stronger overall compared to their non-setting-up relatives.

[t3h Icy]

Psychic vs Hypnosis

Gengar's Psychic vs another Gengar will always take 3 hits, or a Critical hit and another hit. Alternatively, the first Psychic could be a Special fall and the following hit will be a guaranteed 2HKO (barely, but it is).

So the goal is to make the opposing Gengar faint before your own falls asleep.

You use Psychic
Opponent uses Hypnosis

(Since all of Gengar's possible Psychics vs another Gengar require two turns, the order of the first turn doesn't matter (in terms of reaching the goal).

40% Success Rate so far

Possibilities with Psychic having lowering Special on the first turn (30% chance)

#1
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 4.8%

#2
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 12%

Possibilities with Psychic after two turns and at least one Psychic was critical (~46% chance)

#1
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 7.36%

#2
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 18.4%

The first two Psychics are not critical and the first Psychic didn't lower Special (avoiding Hypnosis twice 16%)

#1
Opponent uses Hypnosis
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 6.4%

#2
You use Psychic
Success Rate = 16%

Total Success Rate of putting the opponent's Gengar to sleep with Hypnosis is 42%
Total Success Rate of putting the opponent's Gengar to sleep aided by Confuse Ray is 28.05%
Total Success Rate of KOing the opponent's Gengar with Psychic is about 11%.

Clearly, like Confuse Ray, using Psychic is an inferior method of dealing with Gengar, but using Psychic yields the greatest goal (knocking out Gengar and being able to put another Pokemon to sleep).

Just something to think about.

[subsmoke]

I think Alakazam is a good lead. What other choice is there? Use Gengar yourself and hope the speed tie against other Gengar goes your way? Exeggutor may be a free switch in against Alakazam but it's gonna put one of your monsters to sleep anyways so why's it matter?

[subsmoke]

Mar 7, 2010 18:40:35 GMT -8 posthuman said:

Wow, you guys are pretty harsh to each other

I know man. Wiz loses his head once in a while. I hope he didn't make anyone cry.

[WaterWizard]

now now, my beedril post was spoken with a jovial tone. i do apologize if i'm ever overzealous.

[Crystal_]

Gengar is the most common lead because is the fastest sleeper in the game.
Because of this I started to use Psychic on Gengar few weeks before. I thought it was a good idea because usually sleep Gengar is not very good. It is not very useful in the mid or late game and it can do one of his main jobs even when sleeped: block explosions. Gengar has only 30% chances of Sleep before it takes a Psychic, and with a CH or a Spc fell I can 2HKO

Alakazam is a good lead if you consider that Gengar is the lead abaut 60-70% of the times.
I used this Zam: Psychic, ST, Kinesis, Recover. Usually Gengar will switch out, so I use Kinesis (it also lowers Gengar Hypnosis % if stays in) or ST. They will probably sent out Eggy, then I can do at least one or two ST (25/26% damage), and if I did Kinesis I have chances to do 2/3 (even 4) if Eggy's SP misses (50% after Kinesis). If they sent out Chansey, they cant do really anithing, if she TW me I will then block Gengar, Eggy and Jinx's sleep moves while recovering the damage from Psychics, Blizzard or Tbolt. Really is better to get Zam sleeped than other usually in my opinion (besides gengar), if you consider that he can easily wake up agaist random Chanseys, Zams, Stars, Gengars... in the late game, thanks to his high Spc.

Other posible good leads are Tauros and Dugtrio. An sleeping lead is not a must, just dont paralyze a Pokemon that can wall your sleeper.

[Zilch]

Dugtrio is iffy. Yeah, it counters Gengar, but consider that it can't OHKO it without a critical. Best it can do is 96% without it. It can work, but it's risky, and you might end up using up a slot on a ground type inferior to Golem/Rhydon. It's also inviting a switch to Eggy (though it's possible to use this to your advantage), so play carefully.

Tauros ties Gengar in speed, but the risk of taking a Hypnosis is just too great. You really don't want Tauros sleeping, especially that early in the game.

I think the best leads against Gengar are either another Gengar or Alakazam, but others are viable, though more risky (such as Jynx, which can Lovely Kiss or 2HKO with Psychic).

[t3h Icy]

I've been doing some thinking and I have a new idea with Gengar.

Lick. Yes Lick. Why Lick? Because Lick paralyzes.

When you use Lick and paralyze the opponent's Gengar, that means something else is being put to Sleep. But what if they just use Gengar vs your Sleeper? You mean you're going to use a paralyzed Gengar vs my Exeggutor? Well that's suicide in most cases (actually all if you manage to Explode), and Exeggutor can put another Pokemon to sleep later.

Let's look at the math.

Per turn you use Lick, there are 7 possibilities that occur:

Lick para, Hypnosis miss - 6%
Lick non-para, Hypnosis miss - 14%
Lick para, Hypnosis hit - 9%
Lick non-para, Hypnosis hit - 21%
Hypnosis miss, Lick para - 6%
Hypnosis miss, Lick non para - 14%
Hypnosis hit - 30%

Chance of paralysis per turn: 21%

Don't forget though that when you win the Speed tie and paralyze with Lick, there's a chance the opposing Gengar may be fully paralyzed.

Now here's the interesting bit. Psychic's damage range vs Gengar is 155-132 and Lick's is 58-49, so it is almost guaranteed to get a 3HKO or 2HKO with a Critical Psychic. Dugtrio's Earthquake is also almost a guaranteed KO after Lick.

So another possible route is using Lick and Psychic following that for not just paralysis, but also a KO. I went through all possibilities and calculated the percentages for each factor (including fully paralysis, Speed ties, Hypnosis hits and misses, Critical hits, etc) and using Lick, Psychic and Psychic gives you an 18.08% chance to KO Gengar, which is over a 7% higher chance to KO with just using Psychic.

Now even if this is viable against Gengar, is it viable against other Pokemon? Well it depends what you plan to do in the first place. If you're only going for paralysis, Psychic isn't necessary. Otherwise, you need both. However, Explosion is a staple move for Gengar, so that leaves one slot left. Would having Hypnosis and Lick on the same Gengar be contradictory? I'd disagree since the goal is to paralyze (and possibly KO) Gengar, and force the opponent to use something else to take Sleep.

So for a quick summary:

-Per turn, Lick has a 21% chance to paralyze Gengar
-Lick followed by 1 or 2 Psychics is more likely to KO Gengar than just using Psychic.
-A paralyzed Gengar becomes in danger of being KO'd, meaning the opponent will have to switch which means you can put something else to Sleep, or the Gengar is forced to attack (and Explosion vs your Gengar can't happen)
-Exeggutor can finish off Gengar or another Pokemon to sleep, and since Gengar will be paralyzed, Exeggutor would be faster
-Your sleep bait is still Gengar and not something more valuable
-Dugtrio can usually KO after Lick and is immune to Gengar's attack vs switch-ins (Thunderbolt)

However, there are some cons:

-You still need Hypnosis yourself for non-Gengar leads (Starmie, Alakazam and maybe Jynx can comeback =D)
-Lick has no effect against Normals and Psychics, which for many players is 3 or 4 Pokemon
-Lick only has a 21% chance to paralyze per turn, so though the effect is painful for the opponent, the chance isn't super high

So a good question is, why not just paralyze with Alakazam or Starmie? Well, they're useful. Gengar works nicely as Sleep bait since it can't really KO much besides Explosion, can switch into Explosions while still asleep, and is fast and durable enough so an early wake up leaves Gengar still capable of using Explosion. Sleeping Alakazam and Starmie can Recover, but they can't take as much damage in the first place, and are much more effective while awake.

Still, what do you guys think of Lick Gengar, are there ways to make it better, or should the idea be abandoned?

Also as an anti-Gengar as a whole statement, I'm starting to dislike switching into Explosion with a Sleeping Gengar. Suppose you don't and they just do an attack, you need to switch out. Suppose you do, they can use Tauros or something and either your Sleep bait has to die (or take a heavy hit), or you have to switch into Tauros. I'm starting to think that Gengar for Explosion absorbing while asleep has lost some merit.

Hopefully, we'll be able to exit the Gengar-lead metagame, or at the very least change the Sleep war into a Lick war.

[Zilch]

admin said:

Hopefully, we'll be able to exit the Gengar-lead metagame, or at the very least change the Sleep war into a Lick war.

Um... ew?

To me, Gengar's usefulness has tapered off quite a bit. Hypnosis's 60 accuracy just doesn't cut it, and now that alternate leads are becoming popular (Psychic Starmie and Alakazam mainly), it's becoming quite a risk. Now it's possible to lead Gengar against a Psychic type and instantly switch to a counter, but this is risky if your opponent predicts appropriately.

Of course, if they don't predict, then you might get a free Hypnosis in at the risk of something like a Starmie Blizzard. It's all a bunch of mind games, but Gengar's in a bit of a spot since it has to deal with the threat of a OHKO critical, or big damage plus a Hypnosis miss. Maybe you'd like to go with the suicide lead, but that isn't going to kill anything but Jynx with no critical. Besides, what if the opponent suddenly brings out Golem/Rhydon, or heaven forbid, his Gengar to absorb the detonation? Oops.

Gengar can work as a surprise reserve Pokemon (preferably with a third attack or Confuse Ray instead of Hypnosis), but as a lead he's not as attractive as he used to be. If only it weren't for that blasted type 2...

[Crystal_]

I usually just go with Psychic Gengar who has abaut a 55% chances of 2HKOing Gengar factoring in CHs and the special fell. It will usually fell asleep before KOing, but then I can go with Eggy and sleep something else, trying to predict Gengar (Psychic) and Gengar's explosion (to Gengar/Rhydon/Golem)

[t3h Icy]

Umm, it's nowhere near 55%. It's 11% after 3 turns.

[Crystal_]

I mean that Gengar has a 55% chances of a 3HKO and a 45% chances of 2HKO (obviusly it will fell asleep before most of the time)

[t3h Icy]

Well that point isn't useful then if you never get the chance to go for a KO without being put to sleep.

[subsmoke]

I don't like leading with Gengar because then if the other person is using it too you got a 50-50 shot to put the other one to sleep or get put to sleep. Don't like those odds. I lead with Alakazam to handle Gengar since most players lead with it.

[Crystal_]

Gengar isn't definitely the best Pokemon to put to sleep, this is the reason I use Psychic, my Gengar falls asleep, and then sleep something with eggy (trying to catch with psychic the gengar that thinks that comes into sleep powder)

[WaterWizard]

Lick? Really? I actually tried this a few months ago, as a joke. There is no way that will catch on.

Why would you lick instead of using Hypnosis yourself?

Also,

You think Gengar switching into Explosion will get phased out? I think not. Chansey/Alakazam/Eggy are usually already paralyzed by the time Explosions happen in a game, and that means even if you do lose your sleeping Gengar to a revenge killing Tauros, you won't get slept again, and Gengar did his job. But usually you won't even lose Gengar. You'll switch out to Chansey against Zam/Starmie, or to Eggy/Starmie for Eggy/Tauros.

Explosion absorption is key to the metagame. I also find that Gengar is a fantastic switch-in against Chansey mid-game. She takes forever to k/o him, meanwhile giving him several chances to wake up and blow up (or even sleep someone again).

As for those who scorn leading Duggy... How is Dugtrio any more "iffy" than Alakazam? They have the same kill rate. Furthermore, sleeping Dugtrio can switch in on Chansey later in the game after she's out of IB. And Alakazam invites an Eggy switch-in, too, so that argument shouldn't be used against Duggy. Anti-Lead Dugtrio also prevents an early Chansey switch-in (especially a singing Chansey), whereas Alakazam does not.

just my thoughts...

[GGFan]

I'm pretty sure lead-Dugtrio is shunned because Exeggutor can easily switch in. You could use Sand Attack to ameliorate the effectiveness of staying in, but I assume many people would probably just use Psychic instead of Sleep Powder. I think it's an interesting proposal, though, because leads are usually meant to be sleep bait anyway. At least with Dugtrio you can rely on the fact that it isn't there to be a core member of the team, unlike Alakazam who has more sweeping potential and actually has staying power.

[posthuman]

Whether Zam or Starmie are core team members depends on the rest of your team. I would say Starmie is the best anti-Gengar lead (2HKOs Gengar, can do heavy damage to Eggy switch-in).

Lick should be tested more to see if it's actually useful. Icy, if you give up Hypnosis on Gengar, Eggy can easily come in and ruin things. You're forced to Explode, do tiny amounts of damage and get slept or badly damaged (which is somewhat common now with Gengar leads), or let something else get slept.

[subsmoke]

Starmie lead isn't really better than Alakazam. Sure it does more to Exeggutor but not enough to prevent getting slept. And they could just switch to Chansey.

What about using Alakazam as a lead and then switching to Gengar first turn? I do that sometimes. When you lead with Alakazam most people switch to Exeggutor or Chansey. So you switch to Gengar right off the bat instead of leading with it and you don't have to worry about a Gengar speed tie. Or if you don't think they're gonna switch then you can leave Alakazam out and go for a psychic.

[posthuman]

Why's it matter if Starmie still gets slept? It's your sleep bait. And doing more damage to Eggy is certainly useful...and if they switch to Chansey, then you have a nice awake Starmie to use later on with nothing sleeping. You can also predict a switch to Chansey and go Snorlax or something...just my opinion.

[Nerd]

I don't really understand this 'core member of team' stuff. I can understand not using tauros because you want to save it for the end, but if you are deciding between using dugtrio or starmie I don't see how being worse overall is a reason to use dugtrio...

Gengar vs gengar results in a hypnosis war. Gengar 'counter' (alakazam, starmie, dugtrio, rhydon) vs gengar results in mindgames, as you have to predict the switch.

[t3h Icy]

Apr 22, 2010 12:57:27 GMT -8 posthuman said:

Why's it matter if Starmie still gets slept? It's your sleep bait. And doing more damage to Eggy is certainly useful...and if they switch to Chansey, then you have a nice awake Starmie to use later on with nothing sleeping.

Sing Chansey ruins that though.