Do you accept not wrapping?

[Crystal_]

That's the only things that works. We can't force other people not to use wrap moves and vice versa. There are no possible arguments to convince each other. All have already been used. So the only solution is double meta: Now, there are six standard metas: RBY with Wrap / RBY without Wrap / GSC / RSE / DPP / BW.

So let's see if we are enough. Do you accept not using wrap moves when you are playing anyone of those that accept it too, and that will be in this list, like you would if you accept so?

► Crystal_
► Isa
► t3h Icy
► WaterWizard
► Garrin Red
► pocket

[WaterWizard]

lol

~

It's already this way. When Smogon hosts, we have to deal with wrapping. Every other time, wrapping is banned.

~

No need for these thread.

[Crystal_]

I just want to have an idea about how many we are. Also, some people are both here and on smogon frequently.

This is a war. We need to know our allies. Our meta shoudn't be ignored. We are important.

~

So we can count with you right?

[WaterWizard]

Make the thread clearer and more substantive and I may join your cause. For now, I'm Switzerland in this war. Just don't mistake my indefinite neutrality for acceptance of wrapping!

[Crystal_]

It just that: if you are playing someone that prefers playing without wrappers, would you accept not using wrappers against him?

[Isa]

Not going to use Wrap.

[t3h Icy]

lol

I agree with no Wrapping. A lot of other smaller communities also ban Wrap like ATQ, international Pokemon communities, etc. Smogon is the only place with Wrap legal as far as I know.

[WaterWizard]

I don't use wrappers.

[Crystal_]

cool

[garrinred]

I don't use Wrappers either.

[pocket]

After Smogon's RBY Tournament, I will not be using Wrappers against those who are on the list / rby2k10 members.

Doesn't mean I agree with the ban, but rby2k10 would essentially be the only rby player-base afterwards, so I will comply with the regulations.

[Crystal_]

ok, fine. It implies learning two metas though.

[LucasBM]

No wrappers is ok for me.

[hipmonlee]

I did a bit of testing, and it does seem that on NB wrap does have an equal chance of lasting for 4 or 5 turns as 2 or 3.

This roughly means the expected damage of wrap is 25% higher than it ought to be. So be aware, that your impressions of the wrap metagame are based on a simulator glitch.

Have a nice day.

[Isa]

Clearly the only things factoring our dislike towards wrapping is that, and not the general behaviour of the move.

[hipmonlee]

I'm not assuming anything, I just wanted you to make sure you were aware of it.

25% is a big difference in power. Imagine if bodyslam had 106 power. Or thunderbolt had 119.

[t3h Icy]

And then Body Slam and Thunderbolt never let you attack or switch properly either... ;D

Anyway:

3/8 2
3/8 3
1/8 4
1/8 5

0.75 + 1.125 + 0.5 + 0.625 = 3

1/4 2
1/4 3
1/4 4
1/4 5

0.5 + 0.75 + 1 + 1.25 = 3.5

So if the glitch is true, on average you take an extra half turn of damage. That's not very much, and on average is only 16.667...% more damage. It's not a significant difference when PP used per Wrap where the opponent stays in battle isn't very high, but does add up in the long run.

[hipmonlee]

An extra half turn of damage is a misleading way of putting it. Since a half turn of damage is proportionally more based on correct mechanics than it is based on the mechanics we have been playing with.

But yeah my maths was off with the 25% thing.

[t3h Icy]

www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448456

Some important posts:

Hipmonlee:
Last night when I battled EW with a team full of onixes against a team full of onixes.

We used Bind 316 times, it hit 236 times, and the moves continued 586 times. Which is roughly 2.5 continues per hit -exactly what you would expect if it was continuing each amount of times with equal probability (bear in mind that there were some continues cut off due to KOs, though a very small number).

Have a nice day.

Me:
1 3/8 = 3/8
2 3/8 = 6/8
3 1/8 = 3/8
4 1/8 = 4/8
=16/8 = 2 continues per use on average.

1 1/4 = 1/4
2 1/4 = 2/4
3 1/4 = 3/4
4 1/4 = 4/4
=10/4 = 2.5 continues per use on average

586 continues over 236 hits is 2.483....

So it looks like Netbattle is bugged.

[brookman]

I LOVE WRAP!!

BUT IT THINK FIRE SPIN ARE BETTER!!

[Destiny Warrior]

I think chocolate wrappers should be in the dustbin, what use do I have for them against you lot.

Oh wait, Wrap, as in the move.

I support Wrapping moves being unbanned, but don't particularly like to use them. THey're just too unreliable to me.

[hipmonlee]

Ok, here are some calcs:

These are only relevant in 1 on 1 situations, if you can switch, the NB wrap is better for the attacker, since it can ch any turn. On the carts, if you are the defender you can switch out of CHes which means you will overall take less damage - provided you have something to switch to.

The chance of a nite with agility and 200 hp (IE assuming it took damage to set up agility) beating a starmie
NB: 55.8%
Cart: 52.4%

Lapras:
NB: 42.3%
Cart: 38.1%

Cloyster:
NB: 38.5%
Cart: 34.1%

This is using hyperbeam whenever their target is in KO range, and the opposing pokemon always blizzarding.

[WaterWizard]

Wrap effectively renders the metagame unenjoyable.

[brookman]

May 27, 2011 19:59:10 GMT -8 WaterWizard said:

Wrap effectively renders the metagame unenjoyable.

I concur with your scientific method, analysis, and conclusion.

[Crystal_]

i give up

[Chase]

No wrappers for me, they essentially make games one-sided if the opponent doesn't carry/has lost Gengar

[t3h Icy]

Even though Gengar stops a lot of Wrappers, if you hit Gengar with Wrapping moves (even the Normal moves), Gengar can still be partially trapped. With this, you can switch out to say, Alakazam or Starmie without Gengar attacking or anything for that turn. Gengar isn't a complete solution, but does help.

[pocket]

Gengar user can always keep the momentum by switching out. Mine as well, since Gengar can't make a move, and the opponent will most likely switch.

[Crystal_]

The wrapper doesn't necessarily have to switch out in turn 1. He will usually have at least 3 turns to select one (before wrap ends), making the switch out more unpredictable. Moreover, Gengar just has a lot of counters that you don't know what go to.

It's clear that the player that wraps gets the advantage at prediction.

[t3h Icy]

What I mean is, let's say Dragonite uses Wrap on Tauros, and then the Tauros switches to Gengar. While doing 0 damage to Gengar, Gengar is still partially trapped, allowing the Dragonite to switch-out to Alakazam, Starmie, etc and not lose a turn.