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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 26, 2011 9:04:20 GMT -8
Also, I found another way to help with the Counter dilemma. If Snorlax uses Mega Kick on Jynx (after a missed Kiss), and then the next turn Jynx sleeps Snorlax, Gengar can switch in on the Counter and use Thunderbolt for a 99% guaranteed KO. Highly situational, but worth looking at... The true chance is 3/1521 (Snorlax does minimum and Gengar does one of the three lowest). Critical Hits also make this even more likely, the only thing is Mega Kick hitting. But it's definitely an interesting combo that I can see working. |
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 26, 2011 9:16:51 GMT -8
That's not interesting at all. A 18% chance of succeding in a strategy that involves losing Snorlax 96% of the time? I don't really see the point... It's nearly as likely as Jynx CHing Exeggutor, which is nearly gg (game starts pretty much 6-4), and you see, Egg leads are still there.
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
Posts: 86
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Post by borat on Feb 26, 2011 13:59:25 GMT -8
Would you sacrifice a pokemon to get in an extra hit? No? Rarely? Then that's really how important leads are imo. If it's a meta where you can recover from a "free" hit, then it doesn't matter. Leads aren't that important in the first 3 gens, and overrated in the first.
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Post by spies on Feb 26, 2011 22:56:51 GMT -8
I thought it was generally agreed Hypno is the best lead, there's not much discussion to be made here to be honest.
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Post by WaterWizard on Feb 27, 2011 13:53:54 GMT -8
Crystal, it's not a failure 18% of the time. And the worst that happens is a sleeping Snorlax, who can wake up later vs a paralyzed Chansey or catch a couple explosions.
Hypno is a great pokemon.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 28, 2011 4:44:30 GMT -8
It's 82% =/
I consider Snorlax consistency that important in a battle that I can't really see the point on that...
And about Hypno, though having better overall matchups than Egg (slightly worse against Zam, but slightly better against Star / Jynx and 70% chances of succeding against Eggs), I often choose Egg as I consider it's a better poke for the rest of the battle, or Star/Alakazam if I have another sleeper (usually egg), but not as the lead. Nonetheless, it's a great lead I have used myself, with the same support options as Egg for mid-game should it doesn't fall asleep; but doesn't explode for quicker results...
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Post by Nitro on Feb 28, 2011 8:25:17 GMT -8
Hypno is legit as hell. I still think Jynx is the best overall lead just because it's so potent offensively. Does well par'd, does ok taking sleep if it has to. Hypno does better par'd and takes sleep pretty amazingly but it's not killing anything ever. Hypno and Egg are not the same because you don't want your egg put to sleep where as sleeping hypno tends to be ideal. Eggy runs from sleepers whereas hypno has nothing to lose so he challenges gengar to hit hypnosis and if it gets slept, so be it. Move on and sleep with your other sleeper later.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 28, 2011 10:57:26 GMT -8
That doesn't make sense. So, since you don't want your Egg put to sleep (or para), you use Hypno instead, who isn't that bad if takes the sleep. However, it's actually the same slot; as Butterfree is an inferior poke, I don't mind if it gets statused so i'll use it over Exeggutor.
And, if you are running a secondary sleeper, I prefer Alakazam/Starmie as the lead since it can hit Jynx/Gengar before is put to sleep. And factoring in speed, Alakazam has the same chances of waking up later unless you are forced to send it out to eat physical hits (a case where Hypno has nearly no chance neither). And Alakazam is more useful than Hypno mid-late game (popularity proves that) especially if Hypno woke up at -40%.
That's what I think.
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Post by Nitro on Feb 28, 2011 12:00:03 GMT -8
It dishes out sleep, it dishes out par afterwards against egg and "anti" leads, while absorbing sleep against faster sleepers, which is fine. Pretty versatile lead. Exeggutor and Hypno aren't the same pokemon or the same slot. Once it's actually finished leading it becomes fairly worthless (although it wakes up better against golem and lax than zam does - only Tauros gives them the same time frame to wake up).
And yea you would always run a second sleeper with Hypno or none of this would make sense. If you don't like Hypno you don't have to but it's indisputably a better lead than Egg. It's not like you would lead Egg without a backup sleeper either.
If you're looking purely at leads you have to be looking at what coverage your getting and Hypno has more than Egg. They both serve as responses to zam/starmie (though starmie does better vs Egg than Hypno) and Hypno in addition beats lead Eggs and doesn't have to run scared from lead Jynx like Egg does. Who cares about outspeeding Gengar with Zam? Gengar switches out to backup sleeper immediately and advantage lost. Plus, does Gengar even want to stay in against Hypno? Is it really going to risk eating a 328 spcl psychic just to try to sleep exactly what you want him to sleep anyway?
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 28, 2011 12:31:39 GMT -8
"It's not like you would lead Egg without a backup sleeper either"
I do. Many non-RBY2k10 top players do. Using a second sleeper nearly guarantess sleep, but it's a slot you lose in a less consinsent pokemon.
"If you don't like Hypno you don't have to but it's indisputably a better lead than Egg".
I know (and not really that much, and nothing if I play in a meta in which Alakazam/Gengar leads dominate [RBY2k10 meta]), but it's a less useful pokemon. I did mention that in the other post anyway.
"doesn't have to run scared from lead Jynx like Egg does"
Egg neither. Statistically it's better to saty in. If Jynx LK's that's that. And if it Blizzards you have around 80% chances of exploding succesfully (cause Jynx wouldn't switch to Golem/gengar turn 1 right) or +60% of sleeping it. Though if it kills you (CH/freeze/sp miss), then game starts pretty much 6-4 (5-4 if you have second sleeper).
"Who cares about outspeeding Gengar with Zam? Gengar switches out to backup sleeper immediately and advantage lost."
I never use lead zam, as it forces you tu use a sleeper in a position where Zam/chansey would have been better. Anyway, if it's clear Gnegar will switch out, you can go to Egg vs the zam/chansey switch turn 1, though that doesn't prevent Gnegar from Hypnosis later anyway..., but you can use Egg as the sleep absorber now, and turn things as if you have led with Egg.
Yup, post #600!
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Post by Nitro on Feb 28, 2011 12:44:27 GMT -8
Wait, if you're letting Exeggutor get slept...then Hypno WOULD have been better! Why would you ever, ever, ever, ever let Exeggutor take sleep? You lose a ton of defense, the only sleeper (in your case), AND an explosion. That's a disaster. Egg doesn't have to run from Jynx? I guess it doesn't if you want to severely cripple yourself turn 1.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 28, 2011 13:06:01 GMT -8
"if you're letting Exeggutor get slept...then Hypno WOULD have been better!"
It's exactly the same. I don't let it get sleep if I don't have to. Obviously.
"Egg doesn't have to run from Jynx? I guess it doesn't if you want to severely cripple yourself turn 1. "
There's not really better option (obv, if you have Starmie, the problem completely ends) but maybe switching to Golem (but who guarantees me than Jynx won't Blizzard or LK won't miss?). If I go to Lapras or Alakazam/Chansey to take the sleep, I lose one of the most consistent preformers of teh team, and if Jynx freezes/beat the other, teh battle is actually over.
Egg vs egg is 50/50, and most people that carry Egg lead often doesn't have another sleeper (because of their meta). And well, I often run Sing Lapras.
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Post by WaterWizard on Feb 28, 2011 15:09:56 GMT -8
Crystal, I think you're just arguing to argue. Hypno is obviously different from Eggy, and he is a fantastic lead. Better than Exeguttor. Simple sit back and think about it. I don't need to spend my time arguing it.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 1, 2011 5:46:47 GMT -8
If the discussion is that whether Hypno is a good lead or not, yes, it said. I never say it isn't. I was just trying to say why I prefer leading with Exeggutor.
"Better than Exeguttor"
Yes, only as a lead it is (not that much, but it's 70/30 vs Eggs, though less chances against Gengar/Alakazam per turn to score the sleep). But, if Exeggutor doesn't fall asleep, Exeggutor is more useful as a Pokemon. (IMO).
"I don't need to waste my time arguing it."
=( Don't get angry please
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 1, 2011 8:03:36 GMT -8
not angry. and yes, I agree, Eggy is the best pokemon on the team, even if Hypno can make a better lead.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 1, 2011 9:36:46 GMT -8
Between Hypno and Exeggutor. Hypno has a 60% Sleep move, but a 100% Paralysis move, while Exeggutor is 75% and 75%. For the combo, Hypno has a 60% chance and Exeggutor has a 56.25% chance. Though, Exeggutor has more accuracy in the more important move.
Food for thought, but it's not simple to decide who is the best lead and it's pretty much just opinion, especially since it's at the beginning of the game.
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Post by Nitro on Mar 1, 2011 13:24:05 GMT -8
The statistics really aren't the issue at all here.
Hypno makes for a pretty crappy target for Gengar to sleep or explode on but at the same time if it doesn't do those things hypno itself threatens it. With Egg it's much more worthwhile for Gengar to stay in and sleep because sleeping Egg is a huge victory. Jynx probably still sleeps Hypno with no qualms but Hypno is still accomplishing taking sleep. Hypno takes sleep better than exeggutor not just because it's a less useful pokemon. It wakes up better too. Egg is riddled with weaknesses and Hypno is much more likely to wake up on a starmie/zapdos/lapras/Chansey etc.
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Post by posthuman on Mar 1, 2011 15:16:21 GMT -8
Hypno's a better lead than Eggy.
Eggy's a better overall pokemon than Hypno.
Hypno doesn't have to take Eggy's place... you can have both.
What's the issue here?
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 2, 2011 5:01:25 GMT -8
To sum up:
For "sleeping lead" team: Exeggutor/Jynx/Gengar/Hypno/Victreebell/Venusaur leads; Alakazam/Chansey doesn't lead.
For "non-sleeping lead" team: Zam/Star/Hypno leads; Egg doesn't lead
Problem of mono-sleep lead: Faster leads sleeping you before. Example of team: Egg/Jynx/Gengar/Hypno [Lead] // Chansey/Alakazam // Lapras // Golem // Snorlax // Tauros.
Problem of sleeper as not the lead: Having to use two pokes for the sleeping roles, in a sense. Example of team: Zam/Star/Hypno [Lead] // Exeggutor/Chansey(Sing) // Lapras // Golem // Snorlax // Tauros.
Egg vs. Hypno:
Hypno = Better lead
Egg = Better pokemon
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Post by brookman on May 12, 2011 21:51:23 GMT -8
In a blind match Gar/Jynx.
Otherwise, if you know what the opponent is leading (i.e. starmie/zam) you can lead whatever is appropriate (i.e. chansey/not gar ;])
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Post by Crystal_ on May 13, 2011 1:31:29 GMT -8
If your opponent leads Zam, or, to an extent, Starmie, it doesnt really matter if you have a lead disadvantage, since there are million pokes you can go to, and your only worry is actually getting outpredicted (i.e. star / zam vs gar: trainer a goes to egg; trainer b switches out gar and goes to chansey/zam).
That's why zam leads suck.
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Post by brookman on May 13, 2011 11:41:52 GMT -8
I have decided for myself that zam is the worst possible lead. I never want zam para'd t1 and I definitely don't want him sleeping. Even vs. Gar, all you will do is scare it off and at best ch + spc fall the switch with psychic. If it's chansey/egg it won't matter entirely. Para'd/slept zam on turn one can't do his job at all.
"A Dramatic Narration" Anyone who leaves gar vs. zam is either making a read or has no love for his pokemon!!
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Post by Nitro on May 13, 2011 13:08:40 GMT -8
Gengar is the worst possible lead because it requires actually using Gengar on your team.
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Post by brookman on May 15, 2011 9:27:51 GMT -8
. . . nitro you're a bad troll >:
Gengar has plenty of good matches vs. the likes of psychic-less starmie/lapras/articuno/persian/chansey/ 75% health rhydon/golem/almost all of BL/all of UU.
He's the only viable pokemon with immunity to normal type. . .
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Post by hipmonlee on May 16, 2011 3:58:12 GMT -8
My advice: If you lead Jynx, and meet an Exeggutor, you should blizzard at least 95% of the time.
You will end up facing a Zam that will take a lot from blizzard and which probably wont want to par you (in light of exeggutor), or a Starmie, who you can sleep. Failing that you will either rape something with a blizzard, (+ 9% chance of freeze) or whatever is switched in will be slower than you.
The only time you would want to LK is if they switched to their own Jynx. Thats just basically never going to happen.
So if you lead with Eggy against Jynx, switch.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 16, 2011 4:55:36 GMT -8
Eggy should stay in unless it's the only sleeper. And i'd rather put to sleep that zam/star/whatever anyway. Zam beats you 1 on 1 most of the times and Starmie almost always. And it's not difficult to play around a para jynx at all: trainer a has eggy, trainer b has chansey/snorlax/rhydon/etc. Trainer a goes to lax/rhydon/tau, trainer b goes to para jynx, a trainer b is screwed.
And, chances are, if zam/star is not leading to take the sleep, it's pretty important for your opponent's team.
So, if i have egg vs jynx, i'll stay and spowder or explode unless egg is the only thing that sleeps in my team. I wouldn't recommend leading with egg anyway though, especially if it's the only sleeper.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 16, 2011 7:20:55 GMT -8
I wouldn't Blizzard as Jynx or switch as Exeggutor. Lovely Kissing Exeggutor takes care of a Sleeper and an exploder, and Blizzard vs Alakazam isn't worth it unless you Freeze, since he can just Paralyze and heal after. I'd rather put Exeggutor to sleep than Alakazam, and if the opponent does go to Alakazam, he sleeps, and then you Blizzard, hitting most Pokemon hard. Anything that isn't, you can switch against (Lapras, Chansey, Cloyster, etc).
And what Crystal said about Exeggutor lead. Eggy lead isn't great and loses to all the sleepers, but he's the best vs Alakazam (some may argue Hypno). Against a Jynx, you could stay in and use Explosion or take a gamble with Sleep Powder, but I'd definitely want a backup sleeper in that case. Otherwise, I'd switch.
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Post by Nitro on May 16, 2011 9:58:09 GMT -8
I pretty much always LK. Crit blizzing an Egg is pretty much game over but trading getting your jynx slept for taking Egg down to 40% is also a really bad trade. You're going to have trouble ever waking that thing up without getting exploited by physicals and a 40% unpar'd Egg is still really potent.
One thing that can help is if you use something like slowbro or cloyster for extra anti-physical switch ins. One of the hugest benefits of using these pokemon is that you can really almost guarantee waking up whatever frail thing you get slept (jynx, zam, even a chansey is a decent sleep taker in these situations). So if I had a cloyster I might blizzard with Jynx because I'll have enough switchins to not get destroyed by my jynx being asleep. I also run rest Jynx when I run this type of combo btw, it's really effective.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 16, 2011 10:18:09 GMT -8
"I pretty much always LK. Crit blizzing an Egg is pretty much game over but trading getting your jynx slept for taking Egg down to 40% is also a really bad trade."
Completely agree. If eggs dies to ch/freeze/spowder miss, then 2hko from blizz game starts 6-4 and is almost unrecoverable (i have personal experience with this), but if you don't, and eggy sleeps jynx you turn the initial advantage into a disadvantage. And if egg booms to trade with jynx, the initial disadvantage disappears.
Jynx CHing/freezing with blizz is around 22% (so 78% if egg booms in this case), if you add eggy's spowder missing, it's around 40%. The last scenario is recoverable with prediction though.
The amount of advantage you have, though, clearly depends on whether the lead-eggy team you are facing has a backup sleeper or not. If there is an extra sleeper, then, your only advantage would be the hit jynx gets after putting eggy to sleep (and perhaps the turns when you still have the 6vs5 advantage, and your opponent thinks twice about paralysing stuff, as he still needs to get the sleep?), which in many cases isn't really relevant for the battle. This means that in these cases, going for the gamebreaking 22% might be the best idea...
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Post by t3h Icy on May 16, 2011 15:37:48 GMT -8
Jynx lead with Gengar backup is pretty nice. Your worst case is vs Gengar, and if he explodes, you have the fastest Sleeper (or could predict it with your own). If Jynx falls asleep, you switch to Gengar, while the opponent can't do much unless their Gengar has Psychic. The fun thing is that Alakazam and Starmie who are good vs Gengar, tend not to switch into Jynx, so it's a pretty clean, basic setup.
There are simple ways around this though, but it's pretty consistent. On the 1/3 chance you get Lovely Kiss on the opponent's Gengar, you have a bunch of options from there.
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