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Post by hipmonlee on May 16, 2011 15:48:27 GMT -8
Come on, getting Eggy down to 40% for sleeping jynx is at worst a slightly bad trade. Its a better situation than Eggy switching out, you sleeping something else, then eggy coming in against Zam, snorlax or chansey and sleeping you then, without taking any significant damage.
Which is why Eggy should almost always switch out, which is really what makes blizzard so much more useful. A 9% chance of freezing something before the game has even started, and no real threat of a bad matchup as a result.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 16, 2011 15:57:23 GMT -8
You run on hopes of really good luck though, and Gengar doesn't mind a Blizzard, though I don't really see Gengar jumping on Jynx on Turn 1. Exeggutor is pretty valuable for walling Alakazam and for Explosion later on, and not worth eating a Blizzard for. Thus, it'd be pretty common to see Eggy switch out and Jynx Blizzards something for neutral damage at most.
If you're hoping for random Freezes, why not use Ice Beam instead for a little extra chance due to accuracy?
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Post by brookman on May 16, 2011 16:43:30 GMT -8
Jynx is the only pokemon that can OHKO both egg and gengar, frz and sleep all in one relatively speedy mon.
Jynx for president?
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Post by WaterWizard on May 16, 2011 17:26:48 GMT -8
Eggy should not stay in on Jynx... Why would you want your best pokemon frozen/slept/critko'd in the first turn? Lead Eggy needs a backup sleeper and a Starmie/Alakazam on the team. I'd probably switch to Zam or Gengar, and proceed accordingly.
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I think what's just as important as a lead is a backup. Invariably, your lead is going to meet his match, and you need to be ready for that. Dynamic pairs like Gengar -> Eggy and Alakazam -> SingChansey (etc) are essential.
Icy and I used to talk about the "four pillars of a standard RBY team." Those are Tauros, Chansey, Gengar, and Eggy. The idea is a physical sweeper, a staller, and two sleepers/boomers. Then just fill in the last two spots with your preference of Starmie/Snorlax/Alakazam/Lapras/Zapdos/Articuno/Persian/Golem/Rhydon/etc.
Not trying to turn this into a ranking debate, just emphasizing that you need support, especially if you're leading with a sleeper with no backup. Eggy is such a fantastic poke, and to reduce him to sleep bait is poor battling at best.
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Brookman, remember that Tauros/Snorlax/Zapdos (and probably others) can all crit-1hko both Gengar and Eggy.
imo, Jynx is not a very good pokemon. The nice offensive STAB suffers from poor special and moderate speed. I believe the prevalent use of Jynx in the fall is one of the reasons I was able to power through the OU tournament. Jynx isn't much of a team player.
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Post by Nitro on May 16, 2011 22:01:40 GMT -8
Thinking Jynx is not very good is just bizarre. It's only been good for 10 years or so, no big deal.
Thinking Gengar is some type of "pillar" for RBY is downright laughable. Gengar is a staple, while snorlax is an alternate? This place is really crazy.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 16, 2011 22:33:02 GMT -8
I think Jynx is awesome. =D
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Post by posthuman on May 16, 2011 22:37:27 GMT -8
She certainly is.
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Post by Destiny Warrior on May 16, 2011 23:26:21 GMT -8
Jynx is good.
Even though I love using Gengar, I don't think you can call Gengar a staple if Snorlax isn't...
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
Posts: 86
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Post by borat on May 17, 2011 0:52:12 GMT -8
Snorlax is great. Unstoppable? Check.
Gengar is very average.
Yes, I'm fully aware this is the RBY section.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 1:56:11 GMT -8
"Icy and I used to talk about the "four pillars of a standard RBY team." Those are Tauros, Chansey, Gengar, and Eggy. The idea is a physical sweeper, a staller, and two sleepers/boomers. Then just fill in the last two spots with your preference of Starmie/Snorlax/Alakazam/Lapras/Zapdos/Articuno/Persian/Golem/Rhydon/etc." Gengar and Snorlax are certainly in the wrong positions.
Eggy shouldn't definitely be leading. It is at a disadvantage versus every relevant lead. Anyway, why would you lead with Eggy if you have Gengar, Icy?
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Post by Nitro on May 17, 2011 5:21:49 GMT -8
Snorlax basically universally beats or trades 1 on 1 with every pokemon in the game. Run into something random that your team is weak to? Just send Snorlax.
And a Jynx Blizzard is stronger than a Zam Psychic. Meaning, Jynx Blizzard is going to be stronger than most special attacks you find in the game. I guess Zam and Egg and Chansey don't have the special to cut it either. :/
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Post by brookman on May 17, 2011 7:36:22 GMT -8
I think, due to typing, jynx/hypno/egg are more reliable than gengar but gengar's speed and gimmick ghost-type give him a certain edge.
I had a match yesterday lround 1, my jynx vs. gengar. Hypnosis misses. . . ch psychic = ohko. Player sends out exeggutor. . . ch blizzard. . . ohko. . Ya, I'm feelin pretty good right now. . . sends out snorlax? well, I'm feelin pretty good, so I sleep it. sends out chansey. . . FIRST TURN FREEZE.
I felt like a cheater. :/
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 8:02:07 GMT -8
He isn't definitely a very good player if he sends eggy into jynx and then snorlax to take the sleep...
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Post by WaterWizard on May 17, 2011 9:12:33 GMT -8
@ N
I'm no stranger to the power of STAB Blizzard (viz. Articuno). While Jynx's Blizzard is slightly stronger than Eggy/Zam's Psychic if you're looking at raw numbers, the accuracy and PP of Blizzard means its net damage is slightly less. Factor in Zam's crit rate and he's undoubtedly stronger. And yes, clearly Jynx hits harder than Chansey, but hitting hard isn't what makes Chansey so much better than Jynx.
Regardless, I realize Jynx's dual STAB is very nice, but her fragility and lack of recovery to me is not desirable.
I'll admit my disdain for Jynx is partially fueled by a personal dislike for her. She's ugly. Aside from that, in a metagame filled with special sponges/recoverers, aquatics, and faster pokes, Jynx is often the weak link of a team.
As brookman illustrates above, Jynx can pull off some amazing stunts with strong doses of luck. Then again, so can Beedrill.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 10:01:11 GMT -8
Jynx makes eggy rather worthless unless it's running D-E. And that's pretty important. As for being walled look at Starmie. And Jynx can actually stay into zam/chansey having a pretty high chance of freezing them.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 17, 2011 10:19:44 GMT -8
Snorlax basically universally beats or trades 1 on 1 with every pokemon in the game. Run into something random that your team is weak to? Just send Snorlax. This. The only things that give Snorlax trouble are Cloyster, Kingler, Omastar and Articuno, but Selfdestruct should kill them for the tie. Worst case scenario, you follow-up for the revenge KO right after. This is also a key reason why I've had any success with Aerodactyl, since he can take anything except a Paraslam from standard Physical Snorlaxs, and then follows up on most Pokemon with Sky Attack. Eggy shouldn't definitely be leading. It is at a disadvantage versus every relevant lead. Anyway, why would you lead with Eggy if you have Gengar, Icy? The main thing with Exeggutor is he's arguably the best Sleeper vs Alakazam and Starmie leads (except maybe Hypno), and can explode on the switch out. With a Gengar backup, you can Sleep the next Pokemon if you explode on their sleeping Pokemon and if the opponent leads Gengar and Exeggutor loses the Sleep war (or you switch and they get slept), the opposing Gengar won't be able to do anything to your own, unless it has Psychic. The thing is, after the opposing Gengar puts one of your Pokemon to Sleep (whether it be Jynx, Alakazam, Exeggutor or Starmie), they likely won't switch to Starmie or Alakazam to follow-up on that, which are exactly what your Gengar has to worry about when you switch to it against the opposing Gengar. I'm no stranger to the power of STAB Blizzard (viz. Articuno). While Jynx's Blizzard is slightly stronger than Eggy/Zam's Psychic if you're looking at raw numbers, the accuracy and PP of Blizzard means its net damage is slightly less. Factor in Zam's crit rate and he's undoubtedly stronger. Very rarely do you use all 8 PP of Blizzard except vs a stalling Chansey. While Alakazam's Psychic is better factoring in PP, average damage, CHs, etc, Blizzard is a significantly better offensive typing. Ice hits Grass, Flying, Dragon and Ground, and only bad vs Water and Ice, while Psychic hits only Poison and Fighting (basically just Gengar), and is resisted by at least two or three of most teams.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 10:48:14 GMT -8
Well, i'll say Cloy>Aero, but areo's certainly cooler
Being the best lead vs zam doesnt really matter, since there are million pokes that can safely switch into zam especailly when zam isnt going to tw or you become inmune to sleep.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 17, 2011 10:49:19 GMT -8
Cloyster is probably the #1 anti-Snorlax. I'll make a thread about it to see.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 10:50:53 GMT -8
It already exists lol
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
Posts: 86
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Post by borat on May 17, 2011 11:26:48 GMT -8
You guys are getting off topic.
Snorlax is great. Stop talking about jynx. Jynx is also very average. Jynx is no more a "pillar" than Gengar is/isn't.
Stop getting Snorlax para'd for no reason. Snorlax is one of the best at evading paralysis.
Doesn't this place ban clamp? I mean, if you're forcing in Cloyster (who isn't really shrugging off lax's attacks anyway), is that really a bad thing? What's cloyster really gonna do? Reflect/Rest you to death? There's NO WAY the counter is better than the thing it's countering.
And if my running snorlax is forcing you to run something as insignificant as cloyster, I've already won.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2011 11:40:04 GMT -8
If Snorlax isn't getting paralysed, it's because it isn't switching into Chansey; and if it isn't switching inot Chansey it isn't doing what he does best.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 17, 2011 12:12:30 GMT -8
@ Icy
Alakazam's Psychic is much more potent than Jynx, despite doing about 6 less HP to Chansey. Crits + Special falls outweigh a 10% chance for miss, despite a 9% chance for a freeze, turn for turn.
Also, I know that Ice is a fantastic offensive typing (again, viz. Articuno), but Psychic is right there with it. Blizzard hits Eggy and Golem super effectively, as well as the odd Zapdos. Listing Flying (not used @ Ice/Electric) and Dragon (there is one) doesn't add much when you also consider that Ice is resisted by Water and Ice itself. Starmie, Slowbro and Lapras[/] all do a fine job shutting down an Ice attack.
I'll agree with Borat; Jynx is very average. Not excellent.
Also, no one was questioning the potency of Snorlax.
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
Posts: 86
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Post by borat on May 17, 2011 13:38:40 GMT -8
If Snorlax isn't getting paralysed, it's because it isn't switching into Chansey; and if it isn't switching inot Chansey it isn't doing what he does best. False. It just means you're not switching into twave. I'd much rather switch lax into softboiled, tbolt, or ib. Chansey's not exactly "forcing" you to rush to do anything, just like how Gengar isn't.
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Post by Nitro on May 17, 2011 16:46:36 GMT -8
Whenever lax switches into my Chansey I always trade one bslam for a twave because it's well, well worth it.
Chansey will pretty much always par lax unless you've heavily luck pressured with alakazam beforehand.
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
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Post by borat on May 17, 2011 17:25:14 GMT -8
HB range is like 75, 80% or something. Easy to get chansey that "low".
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Post by Nitro on May 17, 2011 17:30:12 GMT -8
Nah
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Post by Crystal_ on May 18, 2011 2:08:18 GMT -8
If Snorlax is coming into Softboiled, then Chansey can TW before switching out anyway.
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borat
Member
ANGRY!!!
Posts: 86
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Post by borat on May 18, 2011 8:41:42 GMT -8
Or Chansey can FP.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 18, 2011 9:25:00 GMT -8
Or Chansey can 255.
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Post by Nitro on May 18, 2011 9:54:29 GMT -8
Or my computer could crash.
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