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Post by garrinred on Jan 25, 2011 9:25:20 GMT -8
Less than a year ago, Gengar was the most popular lead by far. Many players considered it the best lead. There were discussions like this one on how to counter it: rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gd&action=display&thread=4Things were said like "Countering Gengar is best done with your own." and "In the present metagame, Alakazam is a terrible lead." However, reminding us all that the metagame can and does still change, today Alakazam seems to be the most popular lead. It could just be me, but everyone and their mother seems to be leading Alakazam. This simple little shift means a lot though, as it shows us that we haven't reached the point where we as a community have mastered RBY and made its metagame eternally static. There's still room for improvement and growth. At least, that's what I think. The recent popularity of lead Alakazam may have something to do with the fact that he has a >50% chance of KOing Gengar without getting slept or taking any damage, something I noticed even when Gar was the popular lead last spring. Even if the Psychic does not crit, and Hypnosis does land, the Gengar will be severely damaged and the Alakazam will be asleep. To myself and other Alakazam players, this was an acceptable outcome, especially considering the high chance of death to Gengar. The alternative option for other Gengar players at this point was to switch to Chansey or (much more often) Eggy. Eggy can eat a psychic easy, and then proceed to sleep something on Zam's team. Zam vs. Zam is a fair fight, which tends to result in double paralysis. The other common option is a switch to Chansey or (more often) Eggy, resulting in either a paralyzed Chansey or something asleep on the team of the Zam that stayed in. Or it can be a double Eggy sleep battle. However, considering the popularity of lead Alakazam, alternative leads now seem to make more sense. In a metagame in which the start of the game isn't Gar-dominated, this leaves a lot more room for other pokemon to shine as leads, particularly ones that can do a good job of coutnering lead Alakazam. Eggy:My personal favorite for this job is Eggy. When faced with a lead Alakazam, more players seems switch to Eggy than any other move. Wouldn't it make sense, in that case, to just use Eggy as a lead? Without the fear of a Gengar's hypnosis, Eggy is free to fire off Sleep Powder without worry, and there's nothing Alakazam can do to stop it. Most people leading Zam will also let him get slept, so the worst an Eggy player will usually face is getting Eggy paralyzed. Jynx:Another option would be Jynx. Jynx has no trouble eating Psychics, and it can sleep Alakazam. Zam can still use T-Wave to paralyze Jynx though, putting a dent in its usefulness, but it's a paralyzed Jynx for a sleeping Alakazam. Jynx can also counter lead Eggy with either a faster sleep move or a powerful Blizzard. Slowbro?: Another thought I had is using Toybro(or another modified Amnesia Slowbro) as a lead. Amnesia on the first turn, then hit very hard. There's nothing Alakazam can really do, but a switch in to something else might be bad. Overall, I don't know if it would really be viable, since I've never used a Slowbro. These are just a few options for countering lead Alakazam, the greatest of which is probably Eggy. If Eggy starts being used and Alakazam drops in popularity, this opens up the door for a lot more variety in lead choices. Popular Eggy would bring back Gar as a viable option and stregnthen the position of Jynx, maybe even introduce the possibility of lead Satrmie, Zapdos, or Articuno. Whatever happens, it would result in a lot more variety than having everyone lead Gar or Zam. So, what do you guys think about all this? I realize this was kind of a long post. Anything to add, or anywhere I was wrong?
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 25, 2011 10:15:05 GMT -8
It's mostly about strategy rather than about the lead itself. Leading with Alakazam when you have a Chansey + Zam defensive team isn't what you should do. However going with Starmie/Alakazam leads is perfectly fine when they doesn't have a clear role in your team (because leading with them is better than leading Chansey or Snorlax), since both can hit sleepers before it fall asleep. Leading Gengar might be useful for double sleeper teams, as exploding into Zam forces your opponent to change his strategy. Lead Starmie may let you know if your opponent has Chansey. etc.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jan 25, 2011 13:24:28 GMT -8
Good article, Garrin. Glad you're thinking in depth about all of this!
A few things...
There are various advantages in the 5 main leads and anti-leads:
Zam and Starmie are best against Gengar Eggy is best against Zam Gengar is best against Jynx/Eggy Jynx is best against Eggy.
You'll notice that in each of the above cases, it's about outspeeding the foe, except in the case of Eggy vs Zam.
You're right that Eggy is a great lead against all the current Alakazams. It's just a matter of how Eggy does against the other leads. vs Jynx, you're forced to switch. vs Gengar, you have a 30% chance to sleep him. vs. Starmie, you probably want to switch. vs Eggy, you have a 50% chance of having getting slept and then having to switch into an Eggy's Psychic/StunSpore/Explosion/DoubleEdge.
So, if you're ready to handle the other 4 pokemon if Zam isn't the foe's lead, then sure, use Eggy.
The nice thing about a Zam lead is you always know what to expect. you're always going to outspeed (or speedtie) the foe, and you can always T-wave. However, it is nice to get sleep in early, and Zam can't do that very well (Mimic?).
Also, I don't think we'll be "mastering" RBY anytime soon, if by that you mean finding the "best possible team" in the game. Some have claimed such, later to recant. There are so many variables.
There are plenty of viable strategies, and while it is about matching team vs team, it's mostly about how you use the team during the battle, about mitigating your chances for bad luck (switching into Body Slams as little as possible, reducing the number of Ice Beams that come your way, etc), and about staying in control.
I've talked with you, Brookman, and even consumptus about "passive switches" and how they're incredible bad moves if you want to keep in control. So, for instance, avoiding a Chansey switch unless really necessary is just one of the many nuances you'll pick up on as you play more and as you keep analyzing this stuff.
...
As for the more exotic leads, I would say, sure, give them a try. However, I'm pretty well known for using specialty pokes, and I can safely say it's usually better to keep them hidden until later in the game when they can shine. But perhaps you'll prove me wrong.
Slowbro should not be used early game except to spread paralysis via feinting a setup/sweep and retreating. Eggy/Jynx/Gengar can all switch in on the amnesia turn and put Slowbro to sleep. Starmie/Gengar can also KO you really quickly.
Zapdos, Jolteon, and Dugtrio are some of the other alternatives, and I've seen Snorlax as well.
It can't hurt to try. I wouldn't recommend deviating from the 5 leads in, say, a tournament, until you've figured out how to make it work efficiently through practice.
Thanks again for the post! You're on the right track!
WW
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Post by garrinred on Jan 25, 2011 13:41:24 GMT -8
Interesting comments!
About the Slowbro stuff, I completely forgot about how easy it is to put him to sleep early in the game like that. Mostly because I don't use him.
I'm just kind of curious about the recent Zam fad, and am pointing out other options. I can explain more to you privately. ^_^
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Post by t3h Icy on Jan 25, 2011 14:36:57 GMT -8
The metagame isn't changing exactly, just that when striving for perfection new tactics come up. In other words, Alakazam has been a popular lead for awhile around Smogon and Antiquity, but a lot of us here have had been able to handle it with ease (using Starmie, switching to Chansey, etc), and eventually we ended up at Gengar leads. Only that with even further statistical data and pushing for more perfection, we ended up back at Alakazam. So despite that almost everyone plays Alakazam lead, you'll notice a distinct difference in teams and handling.
Also Exeggutor technically has a 33.333...% chance vs Gengar since when both Pokemon miss, you redo that turn more or less. Per turn, it is 30% for putting him to Sleep though.
EDIT: Also as Zilch has shown, teams without Electrics or Grounds have a lot of trouble against Jolteon leads.
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Post by garrinred on Jan 25, 2011 15:11:35 GMT -8
Icy, Metagaming is, by definition, playing in such away that you attempt to gain advantages over the majority of the people in the commuinty or tourney you're playing in. When different styles and strategies become more or less popular, that's what's meant by "a change in the metagame".
Therefore, the new popularity of Alakazam in the RBY2K10 and atq.zapto.org communities, as opposed to the previous popularity of Gengar, is by definition a change in the metagame.
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Post by WaterWizard on Jan 25, 2011 16:32:21 GMT -8
=)
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Post by t3h Icy on Jan 25, 2011 16:35:37 GMT -8
Well, I meant more that we're circling around what was already a common lead, but I suppose that was silly anyway.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 26, 2011 5:44:16 GMT -8
Changing the popularity of a lead is not really metagaming. Not at least compared with GS/RS. The RBY meta doesn't really change, mainly because there are not different playstiles. Using Gengar + Tauros + Chansey + Egg + Snorlax + Starmie is nearly the same or just the same as running Gengar + Tauros + Alakazam + Egg + Snorlax + Starmie and even as running Alakazam + Golem + Egg + Chansey + Tauros + Snorlax. They are the same team, with some variations that make it better/worse/different.
A metagame, by definition, changes to respond a previos change. Otherwise there's no reason to change if you have one of the best possible teams against the "metagame" (if you don't have it, just don't change, but rather, you improve). As an example, GSC "Turbodrum" team was one of the best possible teams when stalls dominated, so there were no reason to change the team. However, offense has become popular now, and consequently this team has changed / dissapeared (as a result of a initial change there is another one, who will cause / is causing a new one, and so on).
Unless for some reason stalls in RBY become usable and nearly as good / as good as standard teams, the meta won't change (a meta needs to be divided in more than one style to actually be able to change, and there's no such division (there's no stall; and defensive - offensive difference does actually exist? aka, are Zam + Chansey teams classified as different as teams without them? Not really). I have been recently trying to divide RBY between offensive teams and defensive teasm (Zam + Chan) though, but it's a minimal difference, the difference being wanting Chansey (maybe zam) para or frz respectively. Anyway, unless one style becomes more popular than the other, so that the later can get more popularity to surpass the former in the future, I can't really see how the meta could change.
To avoid misunderstandings, the changes that occured during the first few years happened because of sets that hadn't still been discovered, that allowed the team to improve. There's not anything left to be discovered, but rather, not explored enough if anything.
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Post by garrinred on Jan 26, 2011 11:07:47 GMT -8
.....Fair enough, Crystal, fair enough. Perhaps my view of the RBY metagame as a whole is too limited to really see how insignificant these short term changes are to long-term RBY development(meaning the past couple of years as opposed to just the one year I've been doing real RBY). And I'll grant you also that nothing really "new" has been discovered or even popularized lately.
I suppose what has changed is mostly the relative popularity of certain strategies that were alreay present, in this case leads. A very small thing compared to the metagame as a whole.
I still think it's at least worth notice and merits a post in a forum like this one. :-P
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 26, 2011 11:35:09 GMT -8
I think you have not understanded what I mean, basically becouse I wrote it very quickly and forget some words (lol): edited. What I was saying is that the RBY meta has not changed and isnt changing, especailly compared to GSC/RSE. Everything else is explained in the other post.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jan 26, 2011 20:19:27 GMT -8
I'm surprised nobody else has given Jolteon a chance. He outspeeds every other OU out there and can paralyze them, barring the odd Golem. I'd recommend leading Jolteon on more offensively oriented teams (i.e. without Chansey) because if the opponent decides to soak up Thunder Wave with Chansey on turn 1, she'll be much easier to take down. Snorlax and Tauros can take her easily, and even Jolteon's Double Kick takes off around 30%, and often double that with his awesome critical rate.
It's also possible to do a quick switch on stuff like Alakazam since Jolteon outspeeds him, giving you an opportunity to switch to Exeggutor for a quick Sleep Powder. He also wipes the floor with Starmie, and Jynx/Gengar really don't like being paralyzed.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jan 27, 2011 4:52:08 GMT -8
I have had (in almost every offensive team I had it) and it's pretty good into offensive teams either as a lead or a pseudo-starmie switch-in. Jolteon beats Chansey 1 on 1 around 70-75% of the times, and has an overall good synergy with other sweepers. I am lately foregoing it though, as nearly all teams I'm seeing recently have Golem (or Rhydon).
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Post by brookman on Jan 31, 2011 23:30:49 GMT -8
You can pretty much lead anything. I was considering leading chansey recently, since everyone and their mother had lead zam.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jan 31, 2011 23:56:43 GMT -8
That would be a disaster if the opponent decides to lead Gengar or Jynx.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Feb 1, 2011 19:53:25 GMT -8
Chansey lead isn't a very good idea, as it's really slow; you're going to get slept if they have a sleep lead, and even if you do face a zam lead you don't really have much of an advantage (they'll probably switch to their chansey, so all you get is a free ice beam...). Better anti-zam leads are Exeggutor and Hypno. Actually, it doesn't really matter what you lead against a zam because you can switch to chansey to absorb a t-wave (if you want a paralyzed chansey) or switch in eggy to sleep. IMO Gengar is far and away the best lead, assuming you want to want to use it somewhere on your team and you have a backup sleeper (eggy preferably).
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Post by brookman on Feb 1, 2011 20:19:11 GMT -8
Except for the fact that Zam OHKO's gengar with CH and you basically have to switch out vs. lead zam. I guess, if no one is leading zam then yes, Gengar is definitely top notch as a lead.
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 1, 2011 22:22:55 GMT -8
In the same fashion, you could say Jynx is the best lead without Gengar.
It cycles like that.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 2, 2011 5:17:48 GMT -8
I won't really bother much about something that is based on randomness.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Feb 2, 2011 12:38:30 GMT -8
Yes, if you lead Gengar and they lead zam (or dugtrio) you have to switch, but Eggy doesn't take much damage from a psychic (or EQ). If they lead anything else, you have an advantage. You could just lead eggy and save the ~50 damage, but that's risky because then they would outspeed if they lead with a sleeper.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 2, 2011 13:07:37 GMT -8
The problem of leading with Gengar is... that you have to use it (instead of something usually better).
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Post by LucasBM on Feb 4, 2011 20:52:30 GMT -8
Gengar is a great pokémon in its own way.
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Post by garrinred on Feb 7, 2011 7:09:57 GMT -8
The problem with leading Gengar is......other people leading Gengar. My hatred of Gar vs. Gar sleep wars is very strong. What's funny is that when Gar was a common lead, and I led Zam, in about half my battles the opponent decided to keep Gar in and go for a first-turn Hypnosis. I loved it.
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Post by gunbladelad on Feb 11, 2011 19:05:41 GMT -8
I remember a time when Electric starters were common, and I started leading with my modified (at the time) Nidoking. Caught a few people by surprise at the time, even turning a few games in my favour simply because people simply didn't know what I was up to.
It wouldn't surprise me to see people using unorthodox Pokemon as starters eventually, as an unexpected Starter can really throw someone's game to hell.
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Post by garrinred on Feb 11, 2011 21:19:03 GMT -8
It works against me, but that's because I don't really know what anything DOES other than the pokemon I'm familiar with. I'm only now getting used to things like Lapras and Slowbro and common BL pokemon. UUs tend to destroy me.
I think against a skilled veteran who knows a lot about UU battling, most of these unorthodox starters(and pokemon in general) wouldn't be terribly effective. I'm sure there are some that would be very good, especially in the right situations, but OU pokemon are overused for a reason.
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Post by Nitro on Feb 25, 2011 21:36:35 GMT -8
Leads are crazy overrated. Like someone mentioned (although still missing the point) you can lead literally anything and get away with it. I've been leading snorlax just fine recently. Though it isn't faster than sleepers it puts extra pressure on them to sleep now instead of try to throw out cheeky attacks trying to nail gengar or golem taking sleep. Jynx isn't gonna get cute with blizzard when hbeam might just ohko her outright, and Gengar is also not about to get cute (when does he ever, though). You wouldn't lead Chansey to counter Alakazam because that doesn't accomplish anything. You typically switch Chansey into Zam to take par because that's who you typically want par'd, it's not that Chansey owns that matchup or anything (lol, Zam is just as common of a switch into Chansey).
I hate Gengar because it basically forces you to run a backup sleeper from a reliability standpoint. Plus, fast sleep is cool but you're almost surely going to sleep whatever the opponent wants you to sleep because everything hits it too hard and hypnosis accuracy is too bad to get too cute. It's not about getting the first sleep as much as it is about what you sleep and at what cost to them.
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Post by t3h Icy on Feb 25, 2011 21:47:58 GMT -8
Jynx isn't gonna get cute with blizzard when hbeam might just ohko her outright. If you don't get the KO with Hyper Beam though, or the Paralysis with Body Slam, and you get put to Sleep, Jynx can do fatal damage using Counter, and will also be non-Paralyzed to put another Pokemon to sleep later if you let Snorlax die. Snorlax vs Jynx isn't great when you don't have something asleep. You wouldn't lead Chansey to counter Alakazam because that doesn't accomplish anything. You typically switch Chansey into Zam to take par because that's who you typically want par'd The only Pokemon Chansey wants to be Paralyzed for is another Chansey. It's really not helpful. Though if you use it for Sleep immunity, that works. I hate Gengar because it basically forces you to run a backup sleeper from a reliability standpoint. Plus, fast sleep is cool but you're almost surely going to sleep whatever the opponent wants you to sleep because everything hits it too hard and hypnosis accuracy is too bad to get too cute. It's not about getting the first sleep as much as it is about what you sleep and at what cost to them. It's not just the Sleep, but it's the pressure with Explosion. But yes, the consistency sucks.
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Post by Nitro on Feb 25, 2011 22:01:53 GMT -8
If you don't get the KO with Hyper Beam though, or the Paralysis with Body Slam, and you get put to Sleep, Jynx can do fatal damage using Counter, and will also be non-Paralyzed to put another Pokemon to sleep later if you let Snorlax die. Snorlax vs Jynx isn't great when you don't have something asleep. Missing the point completely. The point is that you're not going to click Blizzard. If Jynx sleeps me I don't see how Snorlax managed to do any damage that can be countered anyway. All very much besides the point. Snorlax is not staying in. The only Pokemon Chansey wants to be Paralyzed for is another Chansey. It's really not helpful. Though if you use it for Sleep immunity, that works. I don't understand it's like you read me saying "Par'd Chansey is broken" or something. We're talking RBY 101 here. Something has to take par eventually. You know it. I know it. It should be something that walls common twavers. Chansey or Zam. Take your pick. Why would you bother to comment on that?
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Post by WaterWizard on Feb 26, 2011 3:04:06 GMT -8
Hmmmm...
I actually do see what Nitro's saying. Snorlax forces Jynx to Kiss right away, instead of fooling around with Blizzard. The thing is, Starmie forces the same thing, and leaves Jynx paralyzed and damaged 55% of the time. And Starmie also can stay in after getting slept, which Snorlax cannot do.
Also, I found another way to help with the Counter dilemma. If Snorlax uses Mega Kick on Jynx (after a missed Kiss), and then the next turn Jynx sleeps Snorlax, Gengar can switch in on the Counter and use Thunderbolt for a 99% guaranteed KO. Highly situational, but worth looking at...
I was telling Icy the other day that I don't mind Body Slamming Jynx as long as I have Chansey/Gengar alive still to switch in on Counter. Totally negates that threat.
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Post by Crystal_ on Feb 26, 2011 4:15:01 GMT -8
You shouldn't be paralyzing Jynx with Starmie/alakazam turn 1 unless you think you can completely outpredict your opponent. Exeggutor will be sleeping nothing otherwise. Thus, if you switch Chansey into Alakazam you should be taking a Psychic rather than a TW. Now all it's about prediction. If your opponent led with Alakazam, it's because his strategy involves using it to take the sleep if necessary. However, your Chansey is not meant to do that. Consequently, if your opponent decides to go to Exeggutor as you Softboiled/Ice Beam (cause going TW to Zam would be dumb right?, and, in addition, going TW to Exeggutor is statistically inferior as well) you are forced to get something you didn't want to put to sleep (Exeggutor, Chansey itself, Golem etc), pretty much like when you are Egg vs Jynx when the battle starts. Subsequently, I wouldn't really switch to Chansey unless it's Gengar vs Alakazam/Starmie on turn 1.
And about Gengar, listen up, that's the thing. It has a hard time getting a trade with explosion, and, statistically you are much more likely to get a 0,5/1 trade than a +1/1 trade. (Explosion does 50% to Snorlax; and exploding into a 200 HP Exeggutor isn't exactly a trade is it?) I can't really place the chance of MD-ing a Golem above exploding on it, but consider them equally likely to happen as it's 50/50. Hence, unless you get an extra advantage leading with it (vs Exeggutor, Jynx), it's actually statistically inferior as a poke. Another thing is the impact it has in your opponent, or you Megadraining Golem and exploding into Alakazam rather than vice cersa. That's player advantage, or just better prediction.
Talking about Chansey at mid-late game, facing a paralysed one is BETTER than facing an unparalising one. It's your problem if you still think that getting your's paralysed is what works now. The only exception is Counter, obviously. Maybe Reflect too. Counter is awesome when your opponent isn't expecting it, but worthless when you get outpredicted. That mostly depends on it's popularity, so now Counter is awesome, as it isn't. And if you are paralysed, you aren't scared by other Chansey, and if Alakazam tries to spc fall you out, it may get frozen. So now you can maintain the old rule of "getting Chansey paralysed, and not paralysing Chansey". Otherwise, paralyse it, easing sweepers' job (unless it's a battle between "stall" teams aka Chansey + Alakazam (+ Starmie) maybe). I actually think that these old Alakazam + Chansey teams needs Counter Chansey in order not to be an inferior team.
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