Zilch
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What's in the box?
Posts: 561
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Post by Zilch on Mar 8, 2010 19:49:38 GMT -8
With a revival in RBY play should come a revival in the way we group the Pokemon. Doesn't it seem like the "standard" Smogon tiers are a bit outdated? This is the place to discuss their problems, and to shuffle Pokemon around to their rightful place in the tier list. There should also be an NU tier, something which does not exist in Smogon's RBY list.
Here's the current list for reference: (italics are recent moves)
Uber Mew Mewtwo
OverUsed Alakazam Articuno Chansey Exeggutor Gengar Golem Jolteon Jynx Lapras Persian Rhydon Slowbro Snorlax Starmie Tauros Zapdos
BorderLine Clefable Cloyster Dodrio Dragonite Dugtrio Gyarados Haunter Hypno Kadabra Kangaskhan Moltres Mr. Mime Nidoking Nidoqueen Raichu Sandslash Tentacruel Venusaur Victreebel
UnderUsed
Arcanine Blastoise Charizard Dewgong Electabuzz Golduck Graveler Kabutops Kingler ? Poliwhirl Poliwrath Porygon Raticate Tangela Vaporeon Venomoth
Never Used Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Fearow Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Lickitung Machamp Magmar Magneton ? Marowak Muk Ninetales Omastar Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Scyther Seadra Seaking Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff (All NFEs not previously listed)
NOTE: These tiers do not take Wrap, Bind, Fire Spin and Clamp into account, so if you decide to play with them, do so at your own risk!
This thread's for discussion about the current tier structure, and if anything deserves to be moved. Have fun, guys!
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 8, 2010 19:54:09 GMT -8
These are my personal opinions:
Persian to BL Cloyster to OU Charizard to UU
And I'm not fluent with UU enough to split them into NU. I think there should be duplicates of certain Pokemon when Wrap is allowed, such as Dragonite being OU with Wrap, but BL without Wrap. Maybe Victreebel to OU too with Wrap.
Maybe wait on what the other guys have to say. Nerd can probably help with sorting UU really well.
I'll also sticky this.
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Zilch
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What's in the box?
Posts: 561
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Post by Zilch on Mar 8, 2010 20:02:15 GMT -8
Think of a NU as a Pokemon on the UU list you would never under any circumstance use in a serious battle.
Off the top of my head, I'd say Beedrill, Hitmonchan, Ditto, Farfetch'd, Seaking, and Arbok (Butterfree MIGHT be there as it's a worse Venomoth minus the Psychic weakness), along with some others I'm sure.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 8, 2010 20:10:21 GMT -8
Could start off by splitting those and updating the list as we go and discuss them.
Also looking through UUs, Machamp, Ninetales and Golduck may be viable enough for BL. With Wrap, Tangela and Arbok maybe as well.
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Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
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Post by Zilch on Mar 8, 2010 20:15:35 GMT -8
Here's my recommendation of Pokemon who should be considered NU:
Arbok (without Wrap) Beedrill Butterfree (debatable) Ditto Farfetch'd Golbat (debatable) Hitmonchan Seaking
There are others who I don't really consider NU quality, though they're awfully close:
Kingler Lickitung Seadra Vileplume Wigglytuff
I've probably forgotten a few, so keep those ideas coming!
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 8, 2010 20:19:54 GMT -8
Kingler is a weird one. He can't do great in BL or UU, but he can actually hold his own in OU. I'd say UU at least.
Also lol Arbok. He's weird too. Arbok is a great Wrapper and OHKOer, but both are always banned, so Arbok becomes garbage. NU without Wrap, in my opinion.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 8, 2010 21:11:58 GMT -8
I use Persian frequently. She is used more often in standard play than Slowbro and even Jynx. I think it's silly to consider putting a pokemon with stabbed Slash and 328 speed in the BL tier. She is excellent at finishing off weakened Tauros when your own Tauros runs the risk of getting hit/paralyzed by BodySlam. Persian 2hkos Jynx, Alakazam, Chansey, and sometimes even Starmie. She also cuts through Reflect. For these reasons, she is OU.
Also, Ninetales should stay in UU.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 9, 2010 9:53:31 GMT -8
How does smogon figure if a monster is BL? When it's not used enough for OU but too powerful for UU?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 9, 2010 11:15:35 GMT -8
I'm not sure their exact way of doing it, but most BLs would have difficulties in OU, but would be overpowered for UU. An example would be Dodrio, which has a lot of trouble in OU, but still has potential (as a Physical Sweeper), so Dodrio could work in OU, but it's difficult.
On the other hand, in UU, Dodrio has the combination of Speed and Attack that would destroy most of the Pokemon at that tier level. Of course Dodrio could be countered by Rocks, but that would be like saying Zapdos isn't OU because of Golem. If in UU all the opponent's Rocks are taken out, Dodrio can take out most Pokemon.
So Dodrio is too powerful for UU but underpowered in OU, so it's BL.
NU is a level down from UU, where even in the UU environment, they wouldn't fare well, such as Golbat. Golbat struggles to take out literally almost any Pokemon, and relies on confusion and perhaps flinching, and even that is fairly ineffective. Hence, Golbat would be NU.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 9, 2010 23:13:47 GMT -8
Yeah that makes sense. How are we looking at the tiers here though? Are we going on popularity or power? If we're going on usage then Persian is probably BL.
I think Hitmonlee and Machamp are good enough to be in a higher tier. There are loads of monsters in OU weak to fighting moves.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 9, 2010 23:41:21 GMT -8
Technically BL are the Ubers of UU. So Hitmonlee and Machamp should not be moved to BL on the basis that they are then closer to OU. They should only be moved if they centralize UU gameplay. They don't, so they should stay UU. Besides, Hitmonlee is horrible, almost NU.
Also, Persian would move from OU to UU and then be claimed Uber, thus moving up to BL. I strongly disagree with putting Persian as BL, though. She is used more often than Slowbro and Jynx, and so if she's moved, they must be too. I've stated her uses above.
I think a quick explanation is needed. See my new thread.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 10, 2010 15:47:48 GMT -8
To be honest I don't think the tiers should be changed if we're gonna go by popularity because there's just not enough RBY players these days. If there was an NU tier then most of UU would prob be put in it based on usage.
Yeah Hitmonlee's not too good, all it has over Machamp is Hi Jump Kick and better speed. Machamp could really be good in OU battles though.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 10, 2010 15:58:37 GMT -8
I used to play against a really fluent player that used Machamp a lot, but it simply doesn't work well. Even Tauros, which Machamp is used to counter can often take out Machamp.
Blame Submission. BL tops for Machamp, but I'd say UU.
Hitmonlee I would say UU as well.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 10, 2010 23:04:50 GMT -8
Charizard is most definitely UU.
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Post by Crystal_ on Mar 11, 2010 12:02:43 GMT -8
When you see UU, there is nothing, but maybe vaporeon, that can counter Machamp. But I don't thing the tiers should be changed now.
In my opinion NFEs should be prohibed because when you are using something like Kadabra, Haunter or Graveler in BL or UU you are "OUing" somewhat this metagame.
And I don't know why for example Dragonite is BL without Wrap and OU with. If a Pokemon is a BL is should be always BL. Also I dont like "trapping clause". I think the only rules should be the estandard rules for every generation, like sleep clause etc. If Wrap changes de RBY metagame you should acept this change, like you have accepted for example Chansey, even if you hate it. One says, I don't like wrap: wrap is banned, anothes says: I don't like Chansey: Chansey banned. And finally you have to play with Caterpie and Magikarp.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 11, 2010 12:12:37 GMT -8
Something tells me you've never played against AgilityWrap Dragonite...
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 11, 2010 17:34:55 GMT -8
I'm cool with wrap as long as agility isn't used with it. I was playing nerd the other day and he took out half my team with Dragonite
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Post by GGFan on Mar 11, 2010 20:53:04 GMT -8
Seriously, Charizard isn't BL. The problem with copying Smogon's tiers is that they haven't catered to RBY in years.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 11, 2010 20:56:17 GMT -8
Everyone agrees (I think) that Charizard is UU, just that Zilch hasn't been around.
If he disappears for a long while, I'll just edit his post to reflect any changes.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 11, 2010 21:21:03 GMT -8
Charizard is a bad ass fire breathing dragon though But I gotta say I'm not sure why it deserves to be BL either. Maybe because it gets earthquake and immunity to ground moves? Fire spin might be a reason too.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 11, 2010 21:33:41 GMT -8
Charizard is the only versatile Fire type and also learns Swords Dance.
Not a really big threat, and once you start pummeling him with attacks, Charizard drops quickly.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 11, 2010 21:55:33 GMT -8
eh, we need to do some UU experimenting and see if Charizard centralizes the gameplay. Machamp does not centralize it much, iirc. we'll have to see. let's not make any switches before actually TESTING stuff. on paper is one thing, in battle is very much another.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 12, 2010 7:35:59 GMT -8
Charizard has a terrible typing and isn't even the best Swords Dance Pokemon. The only thing it really has going for it in UU is speed, and that doesn't help it too much considering it needs to set up to sweep teams. As somebody who has won relevant UU tournaments within the last 5 years, I can safely say that Blastoise is a bigger candidate for BL than Charizard is.
Also, I'm not really too fond of Venusaur and Victreebel in BL, either. Victreebel I can understand if you consider Wrap, but they both aren't really anything special when you compare them to the other Pokemon in the tier.
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Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on Mar 12, 2010 8:08:57 GMT -8
IIRC Lutra was working on a 10-tier system a while ago... not sure how that ended up.
Anyways, it is important to understand how tiers work. Ninetales' usefulness in OU is irrelevant to its ranking, it is UU because it does not overcentralize UU gameplay (if there was a NU tier, it would be too strong for it and would end up as UU anyways). Blastoise is UU because it isn't overpowered there and venusaur is BL because it would destroy amnesia users in UU (which begs the next question - is the UU tier currently centralized on amnesia? Should this be changed?)
The names OU, BL, and UU can get confusing so just think of them as numbers (e.g. tier 1, tier 2).
Basically, the OU tier (tier 1) allows any pokemon other than ubers (the 'ban tier') to be used. Therefore, until we come up with a reasonable BL tier it really doesn't matter what is OU - when a BL tier is made, the OU tier would just include all pokemon that would overcentralize BL.
The current BL tier isn't really a battling tier, it's just the ban tier for UU. If we did a bit of testing I'm sure we could come up with a decent tier 2 (again, Lutra was making some tiers before...).
The UU tier at smogon is OK but it can be improved. It can definately be split into a NU tier as well, but the problem with NU is that you have to consider NFE pokemon as well, like graveler (thanks for remembering zilch), gastly, dragonair, and maybe abra that would be overpowered in NU.
As for changes - I think if wrapping is allowed, dragonite and cloyster become OU. I could come up with some revisions to UU and NU, but I think it would be best to wait for Lutra and for your opinions on amnesia users in UU (are they overpowered or not?).
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 12, 2010 8:56:00 GMT -8
Victreebel is definitely BL with Wrapping, but otherwise UU.
And Venusaur belongs in UU. Just because he destroys Amnesia users, doesn't warrant him moving to BL. Venusaur still has plenty of counters, while Amnesia users don't have too too many. In a BL environment and OU for that matter, Venusaur doesn't do well at all.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 12, 2010 11:47:05 GMT -8
The important thing to remember about Venusaur is that it's slower than Golduck, so it doesn't really counter it. Also, Venusaur is a lackluster attacker and doesn't break UU, so I don't see why it should be in BL.
As for Blastoise, it is a very powerful sweeper in UU that isn't really countered by anything. For the sake of consistence, it shouldn't be in a lower tier than Charizard and Venusaur.
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Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
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Post by Zilch on Mar 12, 2010 19:41:41 GMT -8
Okay, I've modified the page a bit based on discussion. Does anything that gets Fire Spin/Bind deserve to move on up?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 12, 2010 19:43:35 GMT -8
Tangela to BL....maybe.
Fire Spin isn't exactly reliable except for Agility users like Rapidash and Moltres, but they'd still be where they are in my opinion.
Nice update bud.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 12, 2010 19:57:17 GMT -8
I think Victreebel and Venusaur should be in the same tier if Wrap is banned.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 12, 2010 21:03:25 GMT -8
Dragonair (Wrap) to BL Tangela (Bind) to BL Victreebel (without Wrap) to UU Aerodactyl to NU Butterfree to NU Lickitung to NU (maybe UU with Wrap though) Magneton to NU Marowak to NU Onix to NU (maybe) Parasect to NU Pidgeot to NU Scyther to NU Seadra to NU
Those are my opinions, but I'm probably a little harsh with what goes to NU.
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