Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on Apr 22, 2010 15:50:02 GMT -8
Most likely pikachu and meowth... it would basically be a NFE tier anyways so what's the point?
IMO the next thing to test is UU without the 'standards' of UU.
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Post by Crystal_ on Apr 23, 2010 10:59:10 GMT -8
But what number of standards? Only abaut the 6-7?
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Post by t3h Icy on Apr 23, 2010 15:12:05 GMT -8
After the UU Tournament ends, we'll rework the tiers again.
For now, they're staying in place the way they are, but feel free to chatter about them.
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Post by Crystal_ on Apr 24, 2010 3:21:58 GMT -8
We won't create a "BL" tier for NU, so we have to check both if they are not good for UU and if they are TOO GOOD FOR NU.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 9, 2010 14:08:32 GMT -8
This is a very important thread and it is forgotten...
Why those BLs aren't UU (as they aren't too good for UU, in fact, there are even bad)?:
- Clefable: * Waters like Vaporeon and Dewgong are faster and beat it (the former isn't even 3HKOed by Thunderbolt * Amnesiers easily set-up against it * Although it is OK for UU, it isn't anything special, it has the same power as the other UUs. - Dodrio: * Graveler totally stops it and it is weak to Ice and Electric. Waters 2HKOes it whit Ice Beam (Dewgong OHKOes with Blizzard). Electabuzz Thunderbolts it and is faster. Charizard 2HKOes with Fire Blast... - Dragonite: * More debateable though, but without Wrap anithing with an Ice move should counter it easily. Vaporeon 2HKOes it while Dewgong's Blizzard is a OHKO. It is however probably better in BL, as it can at least 3HKO everithing and can sweep with Agility. - Dugtrio: * It is probably OK in BL, but it still loses to Waters (Vaporeon OHKOes it with surf), and it doesn't even OHKO Electabuzz with EQ. Tangela and other grasses should also stop it. - Mr.Mime: * Debateable; bad stats, horribe defense, but STAB Psychic and Thunderbolt can make it too good for UU. - Nidoking/Nidoqueen: * Waters kill them (2HKO, although Hydro Pump from Vaporeon OHKOes Nidoking. Poliwrath and Golduck can also set up against them, OHKOing them with a +2 Surf * They aren't even Electabuzz and Charizard counters, being weak to Psychic and EQ, so, although they can win 1on1, they cannot be switched in easily (in fact they don't OHKO Electabuzz or Charizard with EQ / RS) * Good movepool and nice stats, but a lot of common weaknesses. Anything especial for UU - Sandslash: * Not very good. Vaporeon ties in speed and can OHKO him with Surf. Amnesiers, Dewgong, Kingler... are faster and can (or will) also OHKO with his Water moves. Tangela also beats him * Besides for countering Electabuzz somewhat, Kingler and Charizard are a lot better for a Swords Dancer. - Victreebell / Venusaur: * Razor Leaf hurts most OUs super effectively, so IMO they are better in BL. Electabuzz or even Charizard aren't good counters neither.
Really, being BL the "Uber tier" in UU is loling for me that there could be even more BLs than UUs, considering that some UUs will be moved to NU.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 10, 2010 11:59:30 GMT -8
BL teams totally destroy UU teams.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 10, 2010 12:00:52 GMT -8
But there are BLs that has the same power as UUs or even less, cause everyting counters them
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Post by Dexter on May 14, 2010 9:14:26 GMT -8
I say if you want to recreate the tiers, just remove all the for sure OUs, and add all the BLs to UU and start from scratch in weeding out whats broken.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 14, 2010 12:04:55 GMT -8
all of the BL pokemon own at UU. Charizard was moved down because we realized he doesn't centralize UU, but I don't see anyone else... Dugtrio and Jolteon are wayyy better than Marowak and Electabuzz, and their late-game sweeping potential totally owns UU. No need to scrap the old lists; they are there for a reason.
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Post by Dexter on May 14, 2010 15:49:06 GMT -8
all of the BL pokemon own at UU. Charizard was moved down because we realized he doesn't centralize UU, but I don't see anyone else... Dugtrio and Jolteon are wayyy better than Marowak and Electabuzz, and their late-game sweeping potential totally owns UU. No need to scrap the old lists; they are there for a reason. They blow through UU as it is now maybe, but after adding the BLs they might not be broken. And even if they are, just send them back to BL, no need to ban everything just because of a few squeeky wheels. Name any currently BL pokemon and I could give off a handful of counters that either already exist in UU or are currently also BL
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Post by Crystal_ on May 15, 2010 3:09:29 GMT -8
At least I do think that Nidos, Dodrio and Sandslash are UUs like Charizard. We should wait until the tournament finishes obviously though to start moving pokes if we (you) want to change them.
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Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on May 15, 2010 12:28:38 GMT -8
Some ideas for a new tier:
1) Add pokemon to UU to make a new tier (what crystal is doing)
2) Take the current UU and remove the most used pokemon (Charizard, golduck, vaporeon, poliwrath, electabuzz)
3) Add pokemon to NU to make a viable tier; for example:
Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Kabutops Kingler Lickitung Magmar Magneton Marowak Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Raticate Scyther Seadra Seaking Omastar Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff
Of course, NFEs are allowed and all of dragonair, gastly, poliwhirl, geodude/rhyhorn, drowzee, exeggcute, maybe pikachu, staryu, would be usable. This tier excludes graveler, kadabra, and haunter.
what do you guys think?
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Post by Crystal_ on May 15, 2010 13:08:02 GMT -8
The NU should be based on the UU usage so my opinion is to move to NU everything but: *=debateable - Blastoise* - Dewgong* - Electabuzz - Golduck - Graveler - Kingler - Poliwrath - Porygon* - Raticate* - Tangela - Vaporeon - Venomoth
Although things like Arcanine, Machamp or Poliwhirl could be too powerful for NU, they cannot be moved back to UU, because they aren't used there. If we will want to do this, we should use the bann tier or NU (like Uber and BL). Something like UBL (Under Border Line).
And abaut the UU/BL discussion I do think (as mentioned before) that Dodrio, Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Sandslash are not 'too good' for UU.
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Nerd
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Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on May 15, 2010 13:39:21 GMT -8
The NU should be based on the UU usage so my opinion is to move to NU everything but: *=debateable - Blastoise* - Dewgong* - Electabuzz - Golduck - Graveler - Kingler - Poliwrath - Porygon* - Raticate* - Tangela - Vaporeon - Venomoth Although things like Arcanine, Machamp or Poliwhirl could be too powerful for NU, they cannot be moved back to UU, because they aren't used there. If we will want to do this, we should use the bann tier or NU (like Uber and BL). Something like UBL (Under Border Line). And abaut the UU/BL discussion I do think (as mentioned before) that Dodrio, Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Sandslash are not 'too good' for UU. Tiering by usage alone is stupid. Pokemon are dependant on eachother; if golduck and poliwrath were removed from UU, dewgong would suck. And we do not need to make a UBL tier because we can just combine the ban tier with the tier above (it serves the same purpose). I agree that the addition of some BL pokemon would make UU more interesting and I think that the removal of a few pokemon would also make it interesting.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 15, 2010 21:20:58 GMT -8
Dodrio is wayyy too good for UU. I can't even believe you would suggest otherwise. She has the attack of Snorlax and the speed of Zapdos, with two kinds of physical STAB. LOL She two-hit KOs a TON of pokemon without even utilizing her high CH rate. She cannot by 1hkoed by anyone but Magneton (and Dewgong with Blizzard or a lucky Electabuzz). But these pokemon certainly won't enjoy switching in on Dodrio's Body Slam. The next strongest physical STAB in UU is Fearow at 278. I don't think you understand what a stabbed base 150 attack at 318 with a 20% CH rate means. Her only wall is Graveler, who doesn't like constantly switching in on her paralyzing Body Slams. All Graveler can do is hit incoming Tangela/Vaporeon with a glancing RS/EQ. Dodrio is BL all the way. As for the others you mentioned, the Nidos are incredibly versatile late game sweepers in UU. I'm not so passionate about them, but I still strongly disagree with moving them from BL. Sandslash could be tested out in some casual UU battles to see if he centralizes.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 16, 2010 4:02:41 GMT -8
Yeah, thinking a bit more I realised that it would change the UU metagame a lot, although having boltbeam weakness and being totally stoped by Graveler. Everyone would use Graveler... And you predict Graveler and go with for example Poliwrath then... Definitely in BL. And I was probably underestimating the Nidos too, although they lose to every water in UU 1vs1, they can clean a weakened team, and still hit hard their common swithings in the early-mid game. However they could be tested. Sandslash however, only tying with Vaporeon, is worse and needs a lot of support to be effective, so I think it could be moved to UU. Yeah, but all tiers ARE based on usage. This is the definition of a tier. EDIT: Thinking a bit more abaut Sandslash I realised that it could be too good for UU. It comes easlily into Electabuzz (Psychic does 24-28% and Electabuzz still needs to predict correctly). He can hit hard waters in the switch (doing abaut 35% with EQ to them), and can Slash grasses. Pretty much like Nidos, it would change the UU metagame a lot. Perhaps the BL tier is OK
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Nerd
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Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on May 16, 2010 8:35:36 GMT -8
Yeah, the BL pokemon are too strong on UU. Regarding the usage based tiers: If, for example, kingler was a pretty good pokemon in OU and it was used somewhat often, tiering by usage would put it in the OU tier. However, kingler isn't overpowered in BL or UU or even NU so it should go in NU. If a pokemon centralizes a certain metagame, however, it should be moved to the tier above.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 16, 2010 11:48:47 GMT -8
Yeah, but Kingler isn't OU because nobody uses it in OU. Nope, this isn't the definition of a tier. For example if a Pokemon was too bad for OU and therefore never used there, it is automatically UU regardless of his power there. This is the reason why Smogon I think decided to create de BL tier. But we don't have a ban tier for NUs. You may want to see this: rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gd&action=display&thread=10
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Nerd
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Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on May 16, 2010 12:32:26 GMT -8
*sigh*. The kingler thing was purely hypothetical. If clamp was allowed than this example would apply to cloyster (decent in OU but not too good for BL) Anyways, I said that tiering by usage ALONE was stupid.
OU ban tier (uber) - pokemon that are too good for OU and would overcentralize it OU - Competitive battling tier; All pokemon in this tier and below are allowed. The most commonly used pokemon are listed here. UU ban tier (BL) - Pokemon that are too good for the UU metagame are banned in order to balance it and listed in this tier. UU - Competitive battling tier; all pokemon in this tier and below are allowed. The most commonly used pokemon are listed here. NU ban tier - Pokemon that are too good for the NU metagame are banned in order to balance it and listed in this tier. NU - Competitive battling tier; all remaining fully evolved pokemon and the NFEs not listed in above tiers are allowed here. NFE - Not a competitive battling tier, but the rest of the pokemon go here.
There isn't really any need for separation between the OU and BL tiers for battling purposes, and there isn't really any need for separation between UU and NU's ban tier. As a result, UU and NU's ban tier are currently combined. If you want, you could create another tier as a ban tier.
Of course, pokemon can be played and enjoyed with any tiers so BL and NU's ban tier can still be used for mini-tournaments or w/e.
So you would include *=debateable - Blastoise* - Dewgong* - Electabuzz - Golduck - Graveler - Kingler - Poliwrath - Porygon* - Raticate* - Tangela - Vaporeon - Venomoth and charizard (duh)
these would make up the UU tier while the other decent pokemon that aren't too commonly used (fearow, arcanine, omastar) would be in the ban tier for NU.
BTW the combined UU / NU ban tier is exactly like the current situation with OU and ubers. In that thread WW quoted someone saying 'uber status is determined by power in ubers, not OU'. Similarly, a pokemon is moved into UU if it is too strong in NU, not depending on how good it is in UU.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 16, 2010 20:06:10 GMT -8
In response to nerd's post, I would say that Porygon shouldn't have an asterisk by him. I use him as standard.
Fearow and Primape should probably be on there with asterisks.
Blastoise is through and through NU. Vaporeon and Dewgong totally outclass him.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2010 4:02:38 GMT -8
Well, the UU list was created by me ... But anyway I do think that since nobody uses Primeape or Fearrow in UU they are definitely NU. However I know that altough nobody have used Blastoise yet, it can be OK, being able to win against Vaporeon and Dewgong with Earthquake. However if he is not used in the folowing days it should be moved to NU (well the same can be said abaut Primeape, Fearrow and any other Pokemon; I made this tiers trying to predict what pokes are better for UU, and therefore are and/or will be more uesd). By definition, all tiers but the ban ones ARE based on usage. To remove from NU the "too powerful" Pokemons whe have to create a NU Ban tier (which would work as the BL tier). UU/Ban NU isn't the same as Uber/OU, because in the first case the ban tier is the lowest (being UU the standard tier) and in the second case the standard tier is the lowest one. You can however, de a comparation between OU/BL and UU/Ban NU. Yeah, this is what I mean. I know, but BL exists and BL Pokemon aren't officially OU. So, Ban NU pokes shouldn't be UUs.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 17, 2010 8:18:42 GMT -8
I don't think we should move Pokemon down just because they aren't used. They may have untapped potential. Look at Dexter and Spies. They both are using weird stuff and so far they've beaten every Golduck/Vaporeon/Poliwrath player using the likes of Parasect and Kabutops.
We'd have to test everything before moving things around
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Post by Crystal_ on May 17, 2010 10:17:29 GMT -8
Yeah, I know. We need a lot of time, and some more players perhaps too. I forgot abaut Parasect, IMO it is another "*" by far. I can't find any advantage Kabutops has over Kingler though. Anyway this needs more time and some extra opinions. However, I will repeat, that, by definition, the NU tier HAVE TO be based on usage instead of in "too powerful for NU".
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Underboss
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Rock On Kadabra!!!
Posts: 212
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Post by Underboss on May 18, 2010 23:30:33 GMT -8
I got whooped good by Kaputops in UU, I can tell you that
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Post by Crystal_ on May 19, 2010 10:58:01 GMT -8
Being Charizard almost the only fire used nowadays, Kabutops has nothing on Kingler. Kingler will did to you more than Kabutops did. Kingler has Water resistance (the most important advantage, for example Kingler will 2HKO Kabutops with Crabhammer), more attack, Ground neutrality, x2 Grass weakness, Crabhammer...
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Post by WaterWizard on May 19, 2010 15:52:49 GMT -8
Kingler completely outclasses Kabutops. I'm not sure why anyone uses this fossil. If Kingler is substituted into any team (or situation) over Kabutops, the results will be better.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 19, 2010 15:57:09 GMT -8
Kabutops stops Normal and Fire attacks though. I'd prefer Kabutops over Kingler against Arcanine and the like. Granted, Fires are uncommon, but they pop up around in UU sometimes.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 19, 2010 16:22:15 GMT -8
there are no normal attackers in UU. the only poke would be Arcanine, but Charizard is used now and he has EQ.
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Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
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Post by Nerd on May 20, 2010 14:39:22 GMT -8
Kingler is better in UU because kabutops' rock type gives it a ground weakness and neutrality to water that is exploited by many common pokemon. In NU, however, kabutops may be able to make better use of its rock type as it can wall out Pidgeot, Rapidash, etc. Both kingler and kabutops may be too strong for NU, however.
I made some tiers earlier and I think they should be tested so we can determine what to add or remove:
(pokemon marked with an * are debatable)
Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Kabutops* Lickitung Magmar Magneton Marowak Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Scyther Seadra Seaking Omastar* Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff
Of course, NFEs are allowed. Some good NFEs areL Dragonair Gastly Poliwhirl* Geodude Rhyhorn Drowzee Exeggcute Staryu* maybe Pikachu, and maybe kabuto and omanyte if kabutops and omastar are banned
This tier excludes graveler, kadabra, and haunter.
EDIT: got rid of kingler and raticate.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 21, 2010 4:57:14 GMT -8
Kingler is one of the most used pokes in UU
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