Nerd
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Post by Nerd on May 22, 2010 10:39:52 GMT -8
From here on the ban tier for NU will be called NNU.
Yes, but I am trying to decide whether they should be considered NU or NNU. As of right now, I have all the pokemon you listed removed from NU either in the UU or NNU tier - it doesn't really matter where they are (the ones you put astericks beside are in the NNU tier). If pokemon overcentralize NU, they should be moved up.
Tiers are as follows: UU - Charizard - Electabuzz - Golduck - Graveler - Kingler - Poliwrath - Tangela - Vaporeon - Venomoth NNU - Arcanine - Blastoise - Dewgong - Fearow - Machamp - Muk - Ninetales - Poliwhirl - Porygon - Raticate (note: if graveler, kingler, tangela, and venomoth were moved down from UU, this would be a pretty good competitive tier) UU Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Kabutops* Lickitung Magmar Magneton Marowak Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Scyther Seadra Seaking Omastar* Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff and Staryu*
I moved poliwhirl to NNU.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 22, 2010 11:41:27 GMT -8
Is very precipitated to make the NNU tier without testing the pokes of NU first. So far every NUs are just NUs. Fisrt of all we have to test the NU tier by using different teams.
As far as the UU tier is concerned, i would at least move from NU to UU Dewgong and Raticate, and Porygon, Arcanine and Blastoise perhaps too.
BTW what does the first N of NNU mean?
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on May 22, 2010 13:05:02 GMT -8
NNU = Not NU... feel free to come up with a better name if you like. OK, good idea. So the allowed pokemon are currently: - Fearow - Machamp - Muk - Ninetales - Poliwhirl Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Kabutops* Lickitung Magmar Magneton Marowak Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Scyther Seadra Seaking Omastar* Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff and Staryu* All NFEs but graveler, haunter, and kadabra are allowed. And from here, we will move the overpowered pokemon to NNU and leave the rest as NU. Go make teams everybody
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Post by Crystal_ on May 22, 2010 13:18:04 GMT -8
What abaut UBL? Under Border Line
So UUs are: - Charizard - Electabuzz - Golduck - Graveler - Kingler - Poliwrath - Tangela - Vaporeon - Venomoth - Dewgong - Raticate - Porygon - Arcanine - Blastoise
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on May 22, 2010 13:43:14 GMT -8
There is no need for a UBL or NUU tier as BL is a ban tier, not a competitive tier.
We could call NNU UUU (under under-used) if you want, i guess it sounds cooler...
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Post by Crystal_ on May 23, 2010 5:20:50 GMT -8
lol but this tier (UUU / NNU / UBL) is a BAN tier; The NU Ban tier
IMO possible candidates to that tier are: - Poliwhirl - Machamp - Fearrow (though i think the NU metagame needs Fearrow) - Muk? / Weezing? - Rhyhorn (yeah, use Geodude or Onix if you want to) - Ninetales - Any other fire? / fighting? - Wigglytuff? / Porygon?
Lest test out Pokes!
After testing, we can make polls to decide the definite tier for some pokes.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 23, 2010 11:27:52 GMT -8
Okay so everything but Poliwrath is NU. I know that create a tier for only it is loling, but NU with the others is still fine. Do you agree? Or what abaut moving Poliwhirl to UU (although breaking the tier rules) and forgot abaut UUU / NUU / UBL / Whatever?
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on May 23, 2010 11:33:34 GMT -8
Sure. Tiers are: Tiers are as follows: UU Charizard Electabuzz Golduck Graveler Kingler Poliwrath Tangela Vaporeon Venomoth Arcanine Blastoise Dewgong Poliwhirl Porygon Raticate
NU Aerodactyl Arbok Beedrill Butterfree Ditto Electrode Farfetch'd Fearow Flareon Golbat Hitmonchan Hitmonlee Kabutops Lickitung Machamp Magmar Magneton Marowak Muk Ninetales Onix Parasect Pidgeot Pinsir Primeape Rapidash Scyther Seadra Seaking Omastar Vileplume Weezing Wigglytuff All NFEs but kadabra, haunter, graveler, and poliwhirl are allowed in NU.
I'm not entirely sure about machamp and fearow, though... tiers may have to be changed later.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 23, 2010 11:41:58 GMT -8
Both Fearrow and Machamp give NU an especial charm and Machamp isn't that great anyway. Okay good job for all that have work to make the NU tier XD
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on May 24, 2010 0:00:39 GMT -8
All right, completely overhauled the first post with those changes. Lots of BLs compared to UUs, huh?
In any case, thanks for all the help! NU matches certainly have a lot more kick to them now.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 24, 2010 3:44:02 GMT -8
A topic with the definitive tier list can be post in N&A, isn't this a good idea Icy?
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Post by t3h Icy on May 24, 2010 11:18:14 GMT -8
Well we still have to shift a few things between BL and UU, but that'll be once the UU tournament is finished.
But definitely once everything has been fully tested and we're good to go, then we'll make it more of an announcement.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on May 24, 2010 18:18:37 GMT -8
Just a quick question for you guys: Why do you think Charizard is UU, yet Moltres is BL? Is it just that Moltres' stats are too high for UU? Its movepool is far inferior to Charizard's, and with Fire Spin banned it can't even use that tactic.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 25, 2010 4:51:20 GMT -8
Firstly, you have to consider that smogon made the tiers thinking in Wrap / Fire Spin / ... This can for example explain why Charizard is BL there. And for instance, Tentacruel can still be moves to UU as without Wrap it has not got much advantages over Kingler (typing, poor Attack). Those are think that may be tested, but I'd rather wait at least until the UU touranment finishes right?
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on May 25, 2010 6:59:36 GMT -8
I personally think Tentacruel is too good for UU. It has great speed and special, and it can always use Swords Dance to bump up its rather mediocre attack. Barrier can stall if necessary, and it can pull off Rest quite well. It's a really good tank in BL, especially against stuff like Articuno.
But yeah, Smogon's tiers are all about Wrap and friends. We won't make any drastic moves until the UU tourney finishes, but testing is always welcome.
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Post by GGFan on May 26, 2010 21:42:27 GMT -8
Charizard is UU because it lacks the power to initially sweep whereas Moltres is much stronger. Also, Moltres learns Agility which provides additional Fire Spin support.
Charizard is ok, but definitely inferior to other sweepers in BL and UU.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 27, 2010 10:41:14 GMT -8
Well, we are not making the tiers using wrapping moves.
This is obviously true. However the fact that Moltres does have great overall stats doesn't make too good for UU. We have to see the difference between being good or good for UU. We have to make the tiers either basing on ovelall power on in its power in UU. For example, Moltres is walled by a lot of stuff in UU (waters like Amnesiers and Vaporeon, that abund in UU teams), graveler, and Charizard and Electabuzz to an extent. Even Arcanine can be considered better for UU than Moltres just because Body Slam and his better attack that allows to hurt a bit more waters in the switch.
But by definition a tier is based on whether a Pokemon centralizes too much a tier or not, isn't it?
Anyway I am not saying that Moltres should inmediately be UU, in fact I am not the person who started this discussion.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on May 27, 2010 17:52:15 GMT -8
To me, Moltres is too much of a one trick pony. It has Fire Blast, sure, but what else? Just the standard Double-Edge and Hyper Beam. Granted, its attack (298) is nothing to sneeze at, but, like poor Aerodactyl, only normal type moves are available for use (unless you can somehow justify using Fly or Sky Attack). I can see how it's a bit tough to take down due to its amazing Special and decent Defense, which can double with the use of Reflect, and no way Graveler enjoys taking a Fire Blast on the switch-in.
I don't know, really. It does seem a bit much for UU even if its attacks are limited to two types, one of which, while very strong, is easily resisted. Waters would be the only ones able switch into it, and for many teams that's two or three Pokemon.
Moltres would make a FANTASTIC late-game sweeper once everything's weakened, and preferably with Vaporeon out of the way. Too good, in my opinion. I think Charizard and Arcanine are enough for UU's fire types.
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Post by GGFan on May 27, 2010 19:08:16 GMT -8
Well, we are not making the tiers using wrapping moves.
But you have asterisks over the Pokemon with trapping moves, so it has to be considered.
This is obviously true. However the fact that Moltres does have great overall stats doesn't make too good for UU. We have to see the difference between being good or good for UU. We have to make the tiers either basing on ovelall power on in its power in UU. For example, Moltres is walled by a lot of stuff in UU (waters like Amnesiers and Vaporeon, that abund in UU teams), graveler, and Charizard and Electabuzz to an extent. Even Arcanine can be considered better for UU than Moltres just because Body Slam and his better attack that allows to hurt a bit more waters in the switch.
I'm not arguing that Moltres should be BL; I'm only saying that Charizard is clearly inferior to Moltres -- Fire Spin or not -- making it more practical on a team overall. Charizard needs to utilize Swords Dance to merit any sort of real significance, but the problem is that it pales in comparison to other Swords Dance Pokemon. Moltres, on the other hand, may have a limited movepool, but this is nearly inconsequential as damage calcs show that it is infinitely more useful than Charizard.
To me, Moltres is too much of a one trick pony. It has Fire Blast, sure, but what else? Just the standard Double-Edge and Hyper Beam. Granted, its attack (298) is nothing to sneeze at, but, like poor Aerodactyl, only normal type moves are available for use (unless you can somehow justify using Fly or Sky Attack). I can see how it's a bit tough to take down due to its amazing Special and decent Defense, which can double with the use of Reflect, and no way Graveler enjoys taking a Fire Blast on the switch-in.
The thing is that Fire Blast itself is good enough. Almost every Pokemon in the game that doesn't resist Fire Blast is 2HKOd on average (Snorlax and Clefable are the only two off the top of my head that will survive, but the latter has a slim chance of still dying). Even some Pokemon who resist it will be taking a lot of damage; Graveler and Kingler, for instance, are 3HKOd.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 28, 2010 2:53:26 GMT -8
I know that there aren't really many Pokemon that can switch in Molters but it switch in neither. Yeah the only UUs in which Moltres can come are grasses/bug (1 per team in normal conditions). And yeah you are only going to do around 20% to waters with D-E and nothing to Graveler. And in the late game it is usually still better to use Charizard because it can SD. And also it is very easy to predict FB Vaporeon and D-E Graveler. I even prefer Charizard here because it can Slash waters and Fire Blast still 3HKOed Graveler. And have in mind that Moltres wont like D-E recoil especially against Vaporeon. Anyway, I haven't test it to prove this, but nonetheless I think that it can be a possible change to UU in the future.
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Post by t3h Icy on May 28, 2010 9:34:06 GMT -8
Moltres's Fire Blast does a 38%-45% against Graveler and should you Burn, Graveler will lose to Moltres (unless Fire Blast misses). Even without a Burn, Graveler has only about a 33% chance of OHKOing, as the damage ranges from 403 to 343.
So it is doable, but not recommended.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 28, 2010 9:55:48 GMT -8
Moltres can be comparable with for example Nidoking or Sandslash. They is walled by almost everything in UU but with the right support / luck it can cause great damage. Now a CH, now a FB burn, now an unexpected Hyper Beam... and with his stats it has more opportunities. It is debateable, just depends on what we want to do with the metagame.
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Post by GGFan on May 28, 2010 18:32:26 GMT -8
I know that there aren't really many Pokemon that can switch in Molters but it switch in neither. Yeah the only UUs in which Moltres can come are grasses/bug (1 per team in normal conditions). And yeah you are only going to do around 20% to waters with D-E and nothing to Graveler. And in the late game it is usually still better to use Charizard because it can SD. And also it is very easy to predict FB Vaporeon and D-E Graveler. I even prefer Charizard here because it can Slash waters and Fire Blast still 3HKOed Graveler. And have in mind that Moltres wont like D-E recoil especially against Vaporeon. Anyway, I haven't test it to prove this, but nonetheless I think that it can be a possible change to UU in the future. In the UU environment, Moltres can come in on nearly anything that doesn't resist Fire Blast. Not many Pokemon carry Rock Slide, and Moltres outspeeds a lot of Pokemon as well. Charizard is a little faster, but still doesn't outspeed Electabuzz and can't sweep without a tremendous amount of support. If I was going to use a Swords Dance Pokemon I'd rather use Pinsir, who at least doesn't have a plethora of weaknesses and has exceptional defense as well. By the way, Graveler actually survives 3 Fire Blasts from Charizard on average. As for using Slash on water Pokemon, consider the Pokemon in the UU metagame. Moltres's Fly actually hits for more damage than Slash; and if the opponent switches to Graveler, Reflect seals the win for Moltres barring a critical hit Rock Slide or if Moltres misses a lot and doesn't have Rest. Yes, Moltres has a number of reliable counters, but they apply to Charizard as well. Charizard's EQ isn't powerful enough to initially pose a threat to Kabutops and Omastar, once again contemplating the potential of Swords Dance. Charizard just doesn't have the defense and typing to claim superiority over others who fulfill that same role. And if you're relegating Moltres to using Double Edge on Vaporeon, chances are the game is over. But while Charizard would almost always be screwed against Vaporeon (Acid Armor prevents Swords Dance from being useful), Moltres at least has a chance of OHKOing with a critical hit Sky Attack.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 29, 2010 0:00:12 GMT -8
Yeah, but Charizard is UU
It is really kamikaze to sent it out against Electabuzz or Magneton, and the other Pokemon either resist FB (arround 4; waters, Graveler, Charizard) or are Grasses/bugs (1 per team at best).
Pity switch to Graveler in a predicted Fly/SA recharge turn, though it is true it nails Poliwarth weakness (IMO the best UU)...
Usually you don't use support for Charizard. It is likely your opponent team isn't at full health at the end, and Charizard survives 1 Surf to even set up in waters that are in +2 HB OHKO range. I usally use Charizard just to have protection against grasses/bugs, for a SDer I still prefer Kingler.
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Post by GGFan on May 29, 2010 7:02:24 GMT -8
Yeah, but Charizard is UU
If we're debating whether or not Moltres should be BL, then we have to compare the two in the same tier. Also, I don't know how this site utilizes BL tiers (allowing any in UU play or not).
It is really kamikaze to sent it out against Electabuzz or Magneton, and the other Pokemon either resist FB (arround 4; waters, Graveler, Charizard) or are Grasses/bugs (1 per team at best).
Yes, hence why I said nearly.
Pity switch to Graveler in a predicted Fly/SA recharge turn, though it is true it nails Poliwarth weakness (IMO the best UU)...
But the problem with sending out Graveler is that it can't beat Moltres if it has Reflect.
Usually you don't use support for Charizard. It is likely your opponent team isn't at full health at the end, and Charizard survives 1 Surf to even set up in waters that are in +2 HB OHKO range. I usally use Charizard just to have protection against grasses/bugs, for a SDer I still prefer Kingler.
I didn't say you use Charizard as a "support" Pokemon; I said that Charizard needs a lot of support to sweep effectively. There are other Pokemon who are more efficient sweepers without having a bad typing as well as having better defenses. As you said, Kingler is better.
I don't really think it's saying much that Moltres is better than Charizard. It's not hard to see why, either.
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Post by WaterWizard on May 30, 2010 23:10:31 GMT -8
Moltres is far superior to Charizard. She hits WAY harder and she absorbs water/ice attacks much better. She's too good of a UU lategame sweeper. Especially with a lucky Mimic.
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Post by Crystal_ on May 31, 2010 1:17:22 GMT -8
I will repeat that CHARIZARD IS BETTER THAN MOLTRES IN THE LATE-GAME, due to Swords Dance. For the more early-game Vaporeon can switch in even easily than into Charizard due to the lack of Slash and Body Slam, so the fact that it hits harder is relative. Also, Vaporeon still 2HKOes him with Surf (50-58%), Kingler does the same with Crabhammer (57-67%), and Poliwrath 2HKOes him with a +2 Ice Beam (49-58%), so the 90% of the most important Water/Ice moves will do the same "XHKOs". Perhaps the most important difference is that Electabuzz Thunderbolt only 3HKOes hin without a CH, and although Moltres can 2HKO Electabuzz with FB, it cannot switch into Electabuzz anyway, so Moltres won't change this part of the metagame much. Also, you said Mimic, but... what do you want to Mimic, Surf from Vaporeon, Amnesia from a Poliwrath or Golduck that will beat you anyway. You can Mimic Thunderbolt from Electabuzz yeah, but the turn you used Mimic is the turn you should attack with Fire Blast to beat him or you will lose 1on1. And GGFan said Reflect, but since the pokes that are going to enter first are Waters it won't help at all.
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Post by Crystal_ on Jun 4, 2010 13:08:09 GMT -8
We haven't test wrapping moves enough (well we haven't test it at all), to make own tiers for them imo. And yeah, what abaut Wrap Dratini, wrap Lickitung, Clamp Shelder, Fire Spiners... Is it viable a wrapping NU with them?
Imo we should remove all stuff with (wrap; whatever) in the tier list, as we aren't even playing with them. That's my opinion.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Jun 4, 2010 15:02:06 GMT -8
Regarding Charizard and Moltres, IMO although neither of them overcentralize UU, they force players to have vaporeon + poliwrath + electabuzz on nearly every team as a counter, so I'm against them being in UU. However, I do think they should be in the same tier; there are advantages and disadvantages to both but they are overall better than the other UU fire types.
I agree with Crystal about wrap and tiers. Playing with wrap are completely different than tiers without wrap, and we haven't tested wrap sufficiently to make tiers. Smogon's tiers are made for wrap though, and IMO a UU + wrap tournament would be pretty interesting (as it provides an unreliable counter to amnesia and gives usefulness to some often overlooked pokemon).
BTW I haven't been on lately and I won't for a while due to exams.
One last thing: Anyone else think Ninetales should be moved to UU?
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Jun 4, 2010 15:04:19 GMT -8
I agree. I've removed the Wrap entries from the tiers and added a footnote about it at the end.
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