The Current RBY Tiers

[Underboss]

So we were trying to figure out whether Jolteon is OU, and I was wondering what are the objective criteria that are used to determine what tier a pokemon is placed in?

Is that a pokemon is placed upwards in tiers until they no longer centralize the tier?
Is it based on how successful the pokemon has proven to be in tier play?
Is based on whether the pokemon can find a niche of sorts and is not outclassed in that niche by another pokemon (like Golem outclasses Onix)?
Between two adjacent tiers, is the difference between the "worst" pokemon(s) of the upper tier and the "best" pokemon(s) of the lower tier a clear cut line or a blurry, messy region?

I understand alot of this tier placement must be very qualitative, but I wish we could atleast have some stated guidelines or something on these tiers stated and agreed on.

EDIT: Okay, this helped me a lot:
rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gd&action=display&thread=10

But I have another question.
Since Uber status is based on power in OU, not Uber and since BL status is based on power in UU, does is follow that a pokemon's status in OU is based on power in BL, not OU?

Also, does it follow that a pokemon's status in UU is based on power in NU, not UU?

I'd hope so to make the tiers all based on the same rules

[Nerd]

That's not how it works. Maybe the names are confusing you?
Lets try numbers instead.
Ubers - Tier 0.5
OU - 1
BL - UU ban tier - "2"
UU - 3
NU ban tier - included with UU, consider it tier 3.5
NU - 4

Tier 1 - Tier 0.5 is banned
Tier 3 - Tiers 0.5, 1, and 2 are banned
Tier 4 - Tiers 0.5, 1, 2, and 3 are banned

Currently, a BL (tier 2) battling metagame DOES NOT EXIST (at least not formally). Nothing can overpower BL and be moved up because BL isn't a metagame.


However, if it were to be created, the following would happen:

Metagame tested with Tiers 0.5 and 1 banned

Tier 2 ban tier is created (this COULD be merged with tier 1 or it could be kept seperate - lets call it tier 1.5)

Once the overpowered pokemon are removed, the most used of the remaining pokemon stay in tier 2 while the other pokemon (not too common in tier 2, overpowered in tier 3) exist in the tier 3 ban tier (I guess it could be called tier 2.5)

Right now, we have no tier 1.5 or tier 2, everything is just in tier 2.5.


This would leave us with:
Tier 0.5 - ubers
Tier 1 - OU - frequently used pokemon when only Mewtwo and Mew are banned
Tier 1.5 - 'BL' ban tier - Pokemon that were found to overcentralize the Tier 2 metagame
Tier 2 - Common pokemon (but not overpowered) with above tiers banned
Tier 2.5 - UU ban tier - Pokemon that aren't too common in Tier 2 but too good for Tier 3
Tier 3 - UU - Common pokemon when above tiers are banned
Tier 3.5 - NU ban tier - Pokemon that are too good for Tier 4 but not that common in Tier 3, currently merged with UU and only consisting of poliwhirl (though I think ninetales should move up here and arcanine should move down here)
Tier 4 - NU - All remaining pokemon (No, we do not have a seperate NFE tier)

BTW later generations have competitive uber tiers , this is not the case in RBY. If ubers was competitive, it would be tier 0 and there would be a tier 1 ban tier (tier 0.5). Smogon merges the ban tier with the tier above, so wobbuffet and its pre-evolution are both considered 'uber'.

If the decimals are confusing to you, we could multiply everything by 2 and get a 8-tier system - IIRC Lutra once tried to make a 10-tier system, which would be similar but involve one additional competitive NFE tier.

So yeah, go make a BL tier.

[Underboss]

Nah, this is perfect, thanks nerd. So the thing is that BL metagame needs to be created then.

[posthuman]

8 tiers is a bit drastic. Maybe we should fix UU and NU before making new tiers.

[Underboss]

Why not? Nerd said it, if we have a Tier 2 metagame (BL) then we can have a Tier 1.5 which would be the BL ban tier. I think the likes of Jolteon, Venusaur, Gyarados, and Moltres deserve their own metagame.

[WaterWizard]

Nerd's post reiterates what I've been saying. And I'm glad my old thread was helpful.

[t3h Icy]

The thing that makes it hard to decide how Pokemon get placed is because while a Pokemon may be a tier or two lower, they do okay. Kingler is a prime example. Kingler can hold its own somewhat in OU, so some may place it in BL. But with the way other people are doing tiers is Kingler gets moved down to UU, and seeing if it does well there enough to move up to BL.

I think we need to set in stone what we're doing before actually deciding what goes where. I agree with Nerd's take at tiering.

[Crystal_]

It is very simply. There are two typer of tiers: Standard tiers (OU, UU, NU) and Ban tiers (Uber [for OU], BL [for UU] and the NU ban tier if it would exist.

The standard tiers are based on the usage in that tier (for example is Chansey is common in OU it is OU; if Nidoking isn't common in OU it is UU; if Seadra is not common in OU it is UU and if it isn't neither in UU it becomes NU).
The ban tiers are based on whether a Pokemon is too powerful / centralizes a tier. Jolteon is BL because it is too powerful for UU, Tangela is UU because it does not centralize de UU environment; Mewtwo is too powerful for OU, so it becomes Uber.

Just see this: www.smogon.com/articles/tiers

Kingler can hold its own somewhat in OU, so some may place it in BL. But with the way other people are doing tiers is Kingler gets moved down to UU, and seeing if it does well there enough to move up to BL.

From the bold "but" you are right, but a Pokemon CANNOT be moved directly from OU to BL. It must be done OU - UU - BL

if we have a Tier 2 metagame (BL) then we can have a Tier 1.5 which would be the BL ban tier.

Please, do not make strange things. This tier does not exist even in DPPt with around 400 Pokemon. And imo the NU tier we have is fine and should remain.

[WaterWizard]

haha again I agree with Crystal. If it isn't OU, it's UU. If it's too good for UU, it's BL. If it's never used in UU, it's NU. If it's too good for NU (this is currently only Poliwhirl, I think), it's NUB (or whatever we're calling the ban tier for NU... NUU, NUN, etc.)

Think about this: the UBERS tier is very unbalanced. Mewtwo dominates it. We are LUCKY that the BL tier is not centralized. It COULD theoretically be, but it's not. This allows us to have an extra group of pokemon to play around with.

I would also like to mention that I think all the current OU pokemon are certainly OU. None of them deserve to go to UU (and then BL). Any potential upward movement at this point would most likely be done by Articuno, and potentially Jolteon/Dugtrio. I don't see anyone else at the moment who doesn't fit in their current tier.

Again, I ask that any movement should be discussed first and testing thoroughly.

[Crystal_]

The Little Cup list to be added:

Abra
Bellsprout
Bulbasaur
Caterpie
Charmander
Clefairy
Cubone
Diglett
Doduo
Dratini
Drowzee
Eevee
Ekans
Exeggcute
Gastly
Geodude
Goldeen
Grimer
Growlithe
Horsea
Jigglypuff
Kabuto
Koffing
Krabby
Machop
Magikarp
Magnemite
Mankey
Meowth
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Oddish
Omanyte
Paras
Pidgey
Pikachu
Poliwag
Ponyta
Psyduck
Rattata
Rhyhorn
Sandshrew
Seel
Shellder
Slowpoke
Spearow
Squirtle
Staryu
Tentacool
Venonat
Voltorb
Vulpix
Weedle
Zubat

[Nerd]

I didn't say a BL needs to be created, I just said HOW it would be created. I wouldn't mind having a BL metagame, but we have two tournaments on the go and we still have to finish testing NU (Ninetales -> UU is probably the only change that will occur).

[Crystal_]

Ninetales -> UU is probably the only change that will occur

You don't definitely understand how should be tiered. When have you found it in UU?

[t3h Icy]

Well you can't base tiers purely on usage. Also don't forget when Venusaur and/or Victreebel finally go back to UU, Fires will become better again.

[Crystal_]

But by definition OU, UU and NU _ ARE _ based on usage. Obviously if Vs go back to UU, more fires will become UU, but why?, because they will be more used. It is true that the tiering of one, change the usage of others (and therefore the tier), but the first tiering has been decided because of its usage.

I will also write here this URL that explain this: www.smogon.com/articles/tiers

Obviously BL and Uber (ban tiers) aren't based on usage. If something like Jolteon starts becoming rare in BL in cannot be moved to UU (evidently).

[Underboss]

Tiers should be based on creating a fair metagame in that tier. And I'm of the opinion that the "Borderline" and "Never Used" tiers can have and deserve fair metagames. "Borderline" deserves to be more than a ban tier and should be called Tier 2. Therefore, there should be ban tiers for these tiers and they should be called Tier 1.5 and Tier 3.5 respectively.

The only way to create a good Tier 2/BL metagame is to create a ban tier for BL. Now that ban tier (1.5) could either be fused with OU or it could be separate from OU. I'm okay with either solution, but one way or another, a ban tier for Tier 2/BL needs to be made. The same goes for the "Never Used" tier.

If there are no pokemon that need to banned from Tier 2/BL, then what's the big deal about saying that Tier 1/OU is the ban tier of Tier 2/BL? I think we need to move away from the imprecise terms Overused and Underused and Borderline and rename it as a numbered tier system as nerd has proposed for more precision and equality among the tiers.

We've gone from having 2 standard tiers to 3 standard tiers adding "NU" and maybe now 4 standard tiers with adding "BL"

Standard | Ban Tier

First we had:
=========Uber
1 OU
2========BL
3 UU

Then we went to:
=========Uber
1 OU
2========BL
3 UU
4 NU
Then we went to:
=========Uber
1 OU
2========BL
3 UU
=========UberNU(UNU)
4 NU
And now I think we should go to:
=========UberOU (UOU)
1 OU
=========UberBL (UBL)
2 BL
=========UberUU (UUU)
3 UU
=========UberNU (UNU)
4 NU

The ban tiers are all about making it play balanced and not centralized around one or two pokemon in the standard tiers. And we should have 4 standard tiers.

[t3h Icy]

I dig the 8-tier idea. I think UBL will be empty though since nothing really rocks BL.

[Underboss]

You don't think any of the lesser used OU pokemon will get demoted to UberBL? Slowbro doesn't seem to be used that much in OU anymore. Whatever, just a thought. UberBL will probably stay empty since most people are probably very attached to the current OU list.

But I do expect the UberUU tier to fill up from all the lesser used pokemon from the BL metagame. Maybe like Clefable, Victreebel and Sandslash

[WaterWizard]

Underboss,

I disagree. See my new post here

In summary, I think there should be 6 tiers.

NU
Ubers of NU
UU
Ubers of UU
OU
Ubers of OU

Note that the NU ubers tier currently only has one/two pokemon (poliwhirl, ninetales) and the OU ubers only has two pokemon (mew, mewtwo). The UU ubers tier has a handful of pokemon.

The current UU uber tier (BL) just happens to be fairly balanced already. That is a nicety only.

No need to mess around. Making a ban tier for a ban tier is trash.

edit:

Icy and I (and apparently posthuman, too) think the way to handle the BL issue is to move the pokes out of BL that don't centralize UU. BL seems to be bloated atm.

I'm suggesting Kangy, Sandslash, and the V's be moved down (ehh).

And again, suggesting Articuno (and probably Jolt) be moved up.

Also, realize that anyone can play with BL competitively. But to change the system for that is not realistic.

EDIT by t3h Icy since WaterWizard doesn't know how to link things. =P
EDIT haha w/e thanks anyway gg bye bye

[posthuman]

I think the reason underboss wants 8 tiers is because he wants BL to develop a playable metagame.

I understand this, but I think the problem is that the BL tier is currently way too large. It needs to be cut down and UU needs to be re-thought. BL is a ban tier; the Pokémon within it should all centralize UU, and I think it's obvious that not all of them do. We should fix UU (and probably NU) before we create any new tiers.

If BL is still huge after reworking UU, new tiers can be considered.

[t3h Icy]

Well UU is just Spies vs Dexter in 1 up to 2 sets left, so after that we can revamp everything.

[Crystal_]

A BL ban tier does not even exist in DPPt with a lot of more pokes. We are reviving the RBY metagame, we are not making a new generation with 800 tiers.
Making BL a competitive tier is something that didn't exist, so doing even more than this (BL ban tier) is tooooo much.

I'm suggesting Kangy, Sandslash, and the V's be moved down (ehh).

And again, suggesting Articuno (and probably Jolt) be moved up.

The first four you said will centralize too much UU. They shouldn't be moved by basing in its usage in BL, because BL is a ban tier.

And the last two haven't been using enough to be moved up by far.



******************************************************


Kabutops possible UU: Spies used it against me in loser's finals and I also saw it few days ago in UU (I don'r remember against who I was playing though).

-> Advantages over Kingler
Electabuzz wont never ohko it with tbolt.
Can come into stuff like hb from Zard and Explosion from Graveler.

-> Disadvantages over Kingler
Against Vapy and Golduck.
Ground weakness (Zard, Graveler,..).
x4 grass weakness.
Less attack and lack of crabhammer (though better spc and surf wont miss and can CH).

*Poli 3hkoes both (Amnesia + 2 Psychic for Kingler)

-> Kingler vs Kabutops:
Kingler wins 1vs1 (2hko with crabhammer if does not miss), but if Kingler comes in Kabutops' SD it will lose due to the lower speed.



And nobody has used Arcanine in UU so it back to NU IMO (and then to BanNU if necessary and is created).

And idk what to say abaut Blastoise and Pory.

And to be aswered here if possible: BanNU is going to be created?

[Underboss]

"Making BL a competitive tier is something that didn't exist" - Crystal
So in 10 years of competitive RBY, no one ever established a competitive metagame in BL? That seems pretty unimaginative to me. It's already competitive, not over-centralized and IMO fun, so why can't it be a standard competitive tier? I disagree with those who say that the BL metagame should just be a nicety, and nice happen-stance that should be left alone. And I don't care what DPPt is doing with their tiers, this is RBY, where we call a tier with only 14 pokemon in it competitive while in DPPt the OU tier has 49 pokes and the NU tier has 151 pokemon in it! Surely NU atleast could be cut down into 2 or 3 competitive tiers.

"Also, realize that anyone can play with BL competitively. But to change the system for that is not realistic." - WaterWizard
No it's seems perfectly realistic that BL can be a standard competitive tier just like OU and UU. And we have a system of competitive tiers and corresponding ban tiers, so creating a ban tier for the new competitive tier does not seem like "trash" to me.

"If BL is still huge after reworking UU, new tiers can be considered."
Thank you posthuman for being reasonable. I guarentee you the BL tier will be huge after the reworking of UU. All the pokemon in the current BL tier overcentralize UU. You won't be able to move them down into UU in the current 6 tier system. You'll have to create a separate tier below BL called Uber UU if you want BL to shrink, then what would that make BL? Or you'll have to keep BL just the way it is, a ban tier that is bigger than than a competitive tier. I'm not worried cause I know the ban tier of UU will stay bloated and continue to have a viable competitive aspect to it. The likes of Dugtrio, Nidoking, Cloyster, Hypno, Kadabra, Haunter, Tentacruel, Dragonite constitute a competitive metagame even without Jolteon and Articuno. So even if you promote those two up, it's still going to be competitive and it's more powerful than UU.
One of the three things will happen as you try to work through the current UberUU/BL:
UberUU/BL is either going to stay bloated,
UU is going to become overcentralized from the demotions from BL
A 7th tier will be created to collect all the overcentralizers coming from BL. And BL will thus no longer be a ban tier. It will move away from simply being UberUU

[Crystal_]

I'm trying to improve my skills in RBY, but i won't be able to do this if I have to play a new tier each day. That's all I can say. Thankfully, this is something Smogon, Serebii, Stats or any other forum understand. And then you have Trades, Wrap, ...
I will repeat something I said few months ago: With 800 tiers to play each people would like to play one of them, and there is not a big amount of RBY players left.

In the history of competitive Pokemon never have existed more than five tiers, and this must be for something I suppose.

[Underboss]

I'm not proposing 600 tiers, I'm proposing 4 competitive tiers with 4 ban tiers which will be very small. It won't change metagames around, it will just legitimize the BL metagame. It won't create a slippery slope where we keep chopping up the tiers. We create tiers to encapsulate metagames.
Additional metagames can be played by adding the above ban tier to the competitive tier.

Think of it this way. I'm taking the UberUU tier, which is way too bloated, and chopping it up into 2 ban tiers and one competitive tier. The UberBL tier will probably be empty, the BL tier will have around 10 to 15 and the new UberUU tier under it will have 5 or 6.

And I think most people here agree as do I that a NU ban tier needs to be created.

[t3h Icy]

I think we should organize the Pokemon into the main 4 tiers (OU, BL, UU, NU) and decide from there.

Dexter/Spies should finish today and then we can get started on this.

[Crystal_]

IMO Ban NU shouldn't have to be created.

Kabutops possible UU: Spies used it against me in loser's finals and I also saw it few days ago in UU (I don'r remember against who I was playing though).

-> Advantages over Kingler
Electabuzz wont never ohko it with tbolt.
Can come into stuff like hb from Zard and Explosion from Graveler.

-> Disadvantages over Kingler
Against Vapy and Golduck.
Ground weakness (Zard, Graveler,..).
x4 grass weakness.
Less attack and lack of crabhammer (though better spc and surf wont miss and can CH).

*Poli 3hkoes both (Amnesia + 2 Psychic for Kingler)

-> Kingler vs Kabutops:
Kingler wins 1vs1 (2hko with crabhammer if does not miss), but if Kingler comes in Kabutops' SD it will lose due to the lower speed.



And nobody has used Arcanine in UU so it back to NU IMO (and then to BanNU if necessary and is created).

And idk what to say abaut Blastoise and Pory.

[t3h Icy]

We can finally fix UUs now. =D

[WaterWizard]

yay. I suggest people start using one BL pokemon per UU team and see how it fairs.

[Underboss]

So people get to use possibly Jolteon and Dugtrio and probably Cloyster and Nidoking in UU?

[posthuman]

Jolteon, along with Articuno, is no longer BL. As for the others, sure. One per UU team should work nicely.