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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 12, 2010 22:06:06 GMT -8
in response to Icy's last post:
Aerodactyl shouldn't be NU. Tell me why? Unless someone PROVES otherwise, Tangela doesn't centralize UU, and cannot be considered BL.
Again, some of these tier moves shouldn't be declared without experimentation.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 13, 2010 1:09:37 GMT -8
Well based on usage most UU would prob go to NU. But Aerodactyl's too good for that. Tied for 2nd highest speed in the game, great attack, and it gets fire blast.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 13, 2010 1:20:32 GMT -8
The thing is though Aerodactyl learns no real moves. Double Edge? Fly? Sky Attack? Hyper Beam? Fire Blast?
Aerodactyl, yes, has amazing Speed and Attack, and very interesting typing, but Aerodactyl struggles to KO most of anything except for relying on Criticals. Even in UU, Aerodactyl gets wiped out by most opponent, except low defense ones.
Maybe not NU then (I don't know, ask Nerd or Zilch), but he's one of the worst UUs then.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 13, 2010 2:00:33 GMT -8
you must be kidding. aerodactyl's sky attack is 140 stabbed from 308. that's godly.
he comes in faster than anyone else and finishes people off with 308 hyperbeam, which crits about 1/3 of the time.
he burns marowak and other physicals with low special.
Aerodactyl is certainly not NU.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Mar 13, 2010 3:59:54 GMT -8
In order to make tiers, we have to start experimenting. The OU tier is pretty set already, so the next logical step is to play BL matches and determine pokemon usage. Lutra's been working on this already, but there's a conflict between wrap and no wrap. He has come up with some scary-looking fomulas to determine centralization, so those will definately be useful.
BTW aerodactyl is a decemt uu pokemon. He needs luck in getting crits and burning physical pokemon, but he has the capacity to serve as a late game sweeper with his awesome speed and good attack. Also, his typing completely destroys some NU pokemon.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 13, 2010 11:20:34 GMT -8
Alright, point taken. Aerodactyl goes into UU. But just to correct a statistical error, Aerodactyl's Critical Hit Rate is 25.4% (65/256).
I'm really interested in what Lutra has with his formula.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 13, 2010 21:51:31 GMT -8
good.
also, UU experimentation is next. BL experimentation is purely for entertainment purposes as BL is just the UU ubers.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 14, 2010 14:58:37 GMT -8
I think Marowak belongs in NU. There's no real reason to use it in UU with it being a terrible Pokemon and all.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Mar 14, 2010 15:02:38 GMT -8
Yeah, Marowak is NU. It has decent defense, but otherwise it's worthless and completely outdone by Graveler in UU.
I modified the list again. NU is steadily getting more populated. Do you guys think Hitmonlee and/or Primeape belong in there, too, or does they still have their uses in the UU metagame?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 14, 2010 16:14:22 GMT -8
Looks really good now. I'm not certain about Tentacruel in OU with Wrap, but maybe. Psychic is a bit of a fight but 338 Special helps.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 14, 2010 16:29:12 GMT -8
K so we're not going by popularity like smogon does right? If not then Tentacruel with wrap might be good enough for OU but then it's weak to earthquake, thunderbolt and psychic so I dunno.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Mar 14, 2010 16:53:37 GMT -8
The problem about having pokemon change tiers depending on wrap / no wrap is that the effect on other pokemon is ignored.
BTW I don't think tangela with bind should be BL and lickitung with wrap should be UU.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 14, 2010 17:05:48 GMT -8
Well most Pokemon aren't affected too much when Wrap is legal, except faster ones like Jolteon become more viable. With Dragonite storming with Wrap, Gengar takes the top spot in OU, but by no means Uber.
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Post by subsmoke on Mar 14, 2010 20:06:05 GMT -8
Hmm. Ya know I think Victreebel is BL with wrap or not and Venusaur too. They both hit hard with their attack and special, razor leaf is like a 110 power move with stab, they can raise their attacks up with swords dance and they get sleep powder and stun spore. I think they're too powerful for UU.
What about Machamp? It does hit really hard and can take a few hits as long as it's not psychic. I think it's BL too.
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 14, 2010 20:19:54 GMT -8
machamp doesn't centralize at all. he's UU.
marowak is not NU. it survives water/grass attacks for an extra EQ, unlike graveler.
edit: oh, marowak sucks. NU is fine...
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 14, 2010 20:39:25 GMT -8
Seadra's Surf is a OHKO vs Marowak. =/
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 14, 2010 23:41:16 GMT -8
Primeape to NU? Thoughts?
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Mar 15, 2010 10:40:57 GMT -8
I think Primeape's too good for NU. He outspeeds quite a few UUs (especially Venomoth), and 308 Attack is going to hurt, even with no Earthquake. I don't think he's as good as Machamp, but still, definitely not NU.
What about Hitmonlee? I'm leaning towards "barely good enough for UU", but maybe not?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 15, 2010 10:41:53 GMT -8
To add, Rapidash and Raticate are UU, and I agree with Primeape.
I'm thinking Hitmonlee is as you put it, barely good enough for UU.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Mar 15, 2010 10:43:36 GMT -8
We won't know until we test it out.
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Post by GGFan on Mar 15, 2010 11:02:05 GMT -8
Hmm. Ya know I think Victreebel is BL with wrap or not and Venusaur too. They both hit hard with their attack and special, razor leaf is like a 110 power move with stab, they can raise their attacks up with swords dance and they get sleep powder and stun spore. I think they're too powerful for UU. Venusaur doesn't get Stun Spore, and if you go the double powder route with Victreebel then you have to either not use Swords Dance or Sleep Powder. As Swords Dance Pokemon, they're both inferior to Pinsir who does it much better. Razor Leaf is the main move of debate, but it doesn't make them broken UU Pokemon by any stretch of the imagination. Also take into consideration their typing. Grass/poison is pretty crappy in the UU metagame too. marowak is not NU. it survives water/grass attacks for an extra EQ, unlike graveler. Dugtrio can survive a Surf from Starmie but that doesn't make it OU. Marowak is an awful attacker who should never be used in a serious UU team. What can Marowak do that would warrant any sort of use?
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 15, 2010 11:40:49 GMT -8
Abra might be UU. He has no really problems against anything in NU, except another Psychic, but Abra usually beats them too. 308 Special and 288 Speed is too good.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Mar 15, 2010 13:07:47 GMT -8
What about Gastly? He's a bit worse off than Abra, but still seems great in the NU environment.
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Nerd
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Post by Nerd on Mar 15, 2010 13:55:00 GMT -8
He doesn't have stab psychic.... we should continue to test him out.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 19, 2010 14:52:00 GMT -8
After "breaking" the NU metagame, do you think we should re-merge NU with UU?
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Post by WaterWizard on Mar 19, 2010 22:15:54 GMT -8
perhaps a RU (rarely used) tier for ubers of the NU.
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Mar 21, 2010 11:15:09 GMT -8
What might be a better solution is to just wipe out the NU tier completely and move everything back into UU. The majority of NUs we used were in fact NFEs, and the fully evolved ones we did use (Seadra, Pidgeot, Scyther) were typically the main focus of the game.
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Post by t3h Icy on Mar 21, 2010 11:20:36 GMT -8
Agreed, there doesn't need to be a category for NU, in my opinion.
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Post by posthuman on Mar 24, 2010 16:54:05 GMT -8
Why is Articuno BL instead of OU? I'm not disputing it, just wondering why when he counters some really common OU Pokemon like Tauros, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. Is it because of his moveset limitations?
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Zilch
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Post by Zilch on Mar 24, 2010 19:21:09 GMT -8
Articuno seems to be incredibly easily walled. Put things like Lapras, Starmie, Chansey, even Jynx in there and Arti's in a bit of a spot. If he were somehow able to get TBolt, then he'd be way up there, but as it stands he's just too easily stopped.
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