|
Post by WaterWizard on Mar 24, 2010 19:59:05 GMT -8
Whereas Zapdos is only walled by one pokemon on an OU team, Articuno is usually walled by two (Chansey and Starmie/Lapras/Slowbro). That's twice the setup time for the same sweeping potential. Her counters have Thunderbolt/Surf, and while this isn't going to do a ton against Arty's 348 special, she still can't hit back effectively without a surprise CH HyperBeam.
Nevertheless, I use her about 25% of the time. Her Blizzard is the strongest special attack in the game, and she hits everyone for neutral or super effective damage except the foe's water pokemon. After you paralyze and weaken Starmie, and blow up on Chansey, Articuno can sweep as well as Zapdos.
I think Articuno and perhaps Cloyster could be added to the OU. Along with Slowbro, Jynx, and Persian, they would constitute the bottom of OU. They're all better than any UU/BL pokemon.
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Mar 24, 2010 20:18:43 GMT -8
This type of debating/discussion is what gave me and others the idea to have "Top OU", "Middle OU" and "Lower OU" or something like that, so players reading can determine just how good certain Pokemon in a tier are compared to the others.
Because Articuno as a borderline, is arguably at the very top, and is potentially in the lower area of OU.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Mar 26, 2010 14:19:14 GMT -8
But are you planning to use your own tiers in future tournaments?
And I don't think NFEs should have a tier. In my opinion they should be banned. There are the "same" Pokemon as the OU forms. It is like if you create a (for example) mini Chansey for BL and a mini-mini Chansey for UU, and you do this with every Pokemon.
NU does not exist in RBY... yet. You are ging to create a new tier if you do this.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Mar 27, 2010 18:57:18 GMT -8
It doesn't matter what is 'top BL' or 'bottom OU' because you can still use BL pokemon in OU. Really, there are only two tiers now (and ubers). All pokemon are allowed in 'tier 1', which is split into OU and BL based on popularity. If we make a BL tier we have to evaluate which pokemon are overpowered in the current metagame... I think we should make a solid UU tier instead.
As for the NU tier, we tried it and we found it was centralized on a couple fully evolved pokemon. A NFE tier would probably experience similar problems, and would certainly not be the best choice for a tournament, but IMO it's fun to battle with NFE pokemon once in a while.
|
|
|
Post by WaterWizard on Mar 30, 2010 21:57:15 GMT -8
Please, put Venusaur back in BL.
A. You moved him out without even testing. B. Upon moving, it quickly became apparent why he was BL in the first place.
This Grass/Poison pokemon centralizes UU by being a quick sleeper, a Razor Leafer, and a bulky Sword Dancer.
UU is for the likes of Victreebel and Tangela.
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Mar 31, 2010 5:59:52 GMT -8
How is Victreebel UU but Venusaur is BL? Victreebel learns Stun Spore, has higher Attack, and is just as strong as Venusaur. Is the difference in Speed significant enough to change tiering?
But yes, send Venusaur back up.
|
|
|
Post by subsmoke on Mar 31, 2010 8:19:40 GMT -8
I think they both should be BL. Dunno why wiz thinks one of them is UU and the other isn't. The only difference between them is Venusaur has higher defense and a little higher speed and Victreebel has higher attack and gets wrap and stun spore.
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Mar 31, 2010 12:05:48 GMT -8
Okay, Venusaur and Victreebel are back in BL. I agree, since I've been using Venusaur for a little while now in my BL matches and he does quite well.
Charizard, on the other hand, seems to have found a nice little niche in UU. Looks like he's displaced Arcanine as the main fire type, too.
|
|
|
Post by garrinred on Mar 31, 2010 18:41:28 GMT -8
Tiers should be based on USAGE in OU. Except for the BL tier, which is for pokemon that seriously over-centralize the UU metagame to the point of needing to be removed. I don't think RBY has enough pokemon to warrant a NU tier in addition to the UU one, but idk about that.
I DO believe that tiers should NOT be based on theory, but rather on actual real-life metagame usage.
That's just my opinion though, for all generations of pokemon.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 2, 2010 14:16:03 GMT -8
Charizard: Good, or too good?
Anyone else think Charizard is way better than all the other fire types?
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 4, 2010 0:07:40 GMT -8
I've a feeling that the tiers might adjust a tad once the UU tourney's over.
|
|
|
Post by posthuman on Apr 10, 2010 22:59:27 GMT -8
It doesn't seem that UU is centralized by any one Pokemon. You could argue for Charizard, but he's very difficult to set up, and he goes down quickly. Vaporeon could also be argued for incredible stalling ability...moving Vaporeon up would change UU a lot.
Or can anyone be moved down? I don't know what effect Venusaur or Victreebel have on UU.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 11, 2010 9:34:12 GMT -8
Well it seems to me that vaporeon, charizard, electabuzz, golduck, poliwrath, and to a lesser extent graveler are extremely common in UU. We could add a bunch of pokemon to UU like venusaur and clefable (which would make it more BL-ish) and also remove the pokemon that currently centralize UU to make a more competitive NU tier.
Whatever the tiers are, there will be a bunch of pokemon that centralize the metagame... though if you guys feel like making up new tiers, go for it.
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Apr 11, 2010 13:57:04 GMT -8
We'll leave it until the UU tourney is over though so it's fair for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by Lutra on Apr 12, 2010 5:33:42 GMT -8
Tiers should be based on USAGE in OU. Except for the BL tier, which is for pokemon that seriously over-centralize the UU metagame to the point of needing to be removed. I don't think RBY has enough pokemon to warrant a NU tier in addition to the UU one, but idk about that. I DO believe that tiers should NOT be based on theory, but rather on actual real-life metagame usage. That's just my opinion though, for all generations of pokemon. It SHOULD be based on theory. However it's unlikely we will be able to prove credible theories without the first step of data collection. But yeah if you mean weak theory, weak theory is never the answer. Smogon's BL/UU tier metagames are done in a different way to Smogon's OU/Uber; if they were done in the same approach, I think there would easily be an NU tier metagame. I mean you have only 16 pokemon in OU/Uber - I think it's unlikely every other pokemon would have enough sufficient usage to be contained within just BL/UU. I think a lot of people just assume there will not be enough room for NU because they have become use to the previously weakly thought out BL/UU tiers. People don't seem to want to budge on what they already believe to be BL and UU. There's also the problem that there aren't enough highly competitive players to get very credible results. However, I think it's a fallacy to assume Smogon ever did have strong reasons for the tier placements.
|
|
|
Post by WaterWizard on Apr 12, 2010 22:19:23 GMT -8
Charizard doesn't centralize. Nor does Vaporeon. They are UU for sure (though maybe upper UU).
Seems to me that Charizard, Vaporeon, Electabuzz, and an amnesia user are the four pillars of a UU team at the moment. Perhaps the metagame will evolve...
I don't see anything wrong with the current tiers. A few useful modifications come to light here and there, but that's it. No major overhauls needed.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 13, 2010 16:09:02 GMT -8
WW: the metgame has evolved INTO charizard, electabuzz, vaporeon, and an amnesia user on every team. Take out those pokemon, and anything else that is overpowered of the remaining pokemon (determined by testing), and you have a viable NU tier.
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Apr 13, 2010 17:21:23 GMT -8
This is kind of why I wanted Venusaur and Victreebel (without Wrap) to stay UU.
Oh well, now we know.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Apr 16, 2010 9:01:11 GMT -8
Maybe we should move some NFEs that can be too good in NU to UU. Examples are Poliwhirl, Slowpoke, Exeggcute, Drowzee and Staryu. Also some Pokemon can be moved from UU to NU. My opinion is: - Aerodactyl - Blastoise (maybe) - Electrode - Magmar - Ninetales (maybe) - Porygon (maybe) - Rapidash - Vileplume (maybe)
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 16, 2010 21:01:44 GMT -8
None of those NFE pokemon are too good for NU except MAYBE poliwhirl. My suggestion for new NU: Take the current UU and take out charizard, electabuzz, vaporeon, golduck, poliwrath, and graveler. Further tests can determine which other pokemon need to be taken out (Fearow and arcanine might be a little too strong), but that gives us a completely different metagame.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Apr 17, 2010 11:59:34 GMT -8
I think they should be at least tested. Anyway, a NFE dominated-tier might be nice. Only six Pokemon to NU are very few in my opinion. We should move more, I think.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 17, 2010 12:03:22 GMT -8
The NFE tier will still be dominated by NFEs... (duh). Anyways, I suggest you guys come up with a NU tier once the uu tourney is done.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal_ on Apr 18, 2010 4:22:29 GMT -8
Yeah, and we could start a NU tournament when the UU finish (and the OU lol)
|
|
|
Post by GGFan on Apr 20, 2010 8:24:50 GMT -8
A NU tier easily works for the simple fact that there are Pokemon in the UU tier who aren't used enough. And, we already know some of the Pokemon who would find a niche in NU (Marowak, Seaking, Butterfree, etc).
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Apr 20, 2010 10:50:50 GMT -8
Me, Zilch and I think Nerd tried NU before and the whole metagame revolves around Pidgeot and Scyther, which are countered by Geodude and Rhyhorn, which are countered by Seadra, which is countered by Pikachu, which is countered by Pidgeot and Scyther.
It's just a circle.
|
|
Nerd
Member
Posts: 182
|
Post by Nerd on Apr 20, 2010 17:52:28 GMT -8
Well, pikachu doesn't really counter seadra, but basically that's correct. It's just a bunch of fast fully evolved pokemon that sweep everything except for geodude and rhyhorn.
|
|
|
Post by WaterWizard on Apr 20, 2010 22:00:08 GMT -8
I posit that Pidgeot and Scyther don't counter Pikachu!
|
|
|
Post by posthuman on Apr 21, 2010 7:59:21 GMT -8
Yeah they're both flying...
|
|
|
Post by t3h Icy on Apr 21, 2010 9:32:44 GMT -8
Scyther usually does, but may lose.
Pidgeot's Hyper Beam vs Pikachu: 311-265 (114%-97%)
Seems like a counter to me?
|
|
Zilch
Member
What's in the box?
Posts: 561
|
Post by Zilch on Apr 21, 2010 21:39:12 GMT -8
Let's say we push all the fully evolved Pokemon into UU with the exceptions of Butterfree, Beedrill, Farfetch'd, Ditto, and maybe Golbat and Onix. Who would be king of the NUs then?
For the sake of argument, Amnesia Poliwhirl should also be bumped up to UU. 278 Speed is pretty darn good, even if the other stats are inferior to Poliwrath.
|
|